Passenger Trains > Amtrak routing questions

I will be soon taking an extensive trip to DC from the West Coast on the Sunset, Crescent, Cardinal, Missouri River Runner, and then back to California Texas Eagle/Sunset. I have been tracing out the routes using the "Professional Railroad Atlas of North America". There are a few places that I was not able to be certain of which routes the various trains use. Can anyone assist?

The areas of uncertainty are:

Sunset:

The UP routing from the west is clear up to West Jct. then there are two possibilities for routes into the Houston Amtrak station: one via Eureka and another via T&NO Jct.
Where is the infamous Tower 55?
Then from Houston to Beaumont there are two routes, one northerly thru Hull and another southerly thru Dayton.

Cardinal

According Amtrak's timetable this train diverges from the NS at "Culpepper" onto the Buckingham Branch RR. According to the "Professional Railroad Atlas of North America" the divergence happens at Charlottesville. There is no Culpepper on the map.
There are many options for the train to take to get into Union Station from Dyer. Amtrak lists a UP/Belt Railway/NS and METRA routing. But even with that information it is still not clear which route I can be expected to travel. I know that this has been the subject of a lot of discussion here.

River Runner/Lincoln/Texas Eagle

What route does the River Runner use eastbound from Kansas City? On the map I see that there is about 8 miles of Kansas City Transportation track to a junction with the UP at Sheffield Jct. Is this what I can anticipate?
Where is the Amtrak station in St. Louis and how do the River Runner/Lincoln Service and Texas Eagle trains access this station? It is not clear from the map.

Any help is much appreciated.

John Webb
Trinidad, CA

Tower 55 is just south of downtown Ft Worth.

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will be soon taking an extensive trip to DC from
> the West Coast on the Sunset, Crescent, Cardinal,
> Missouri River Runner, and then back to California
> Texas Eagle/Sunset. I have been tracing out the
> routes using the "Professional Railroad Atlas of
> North America". There are a few places that I was
> not able to be certain of which routes the various
> trains use. Can anyone assist?
>
> The areas of uncertainty are:
>
> Sunset:
>
> The UP routing from the west is clear up to West
> Jct. then there are two possibilities for routes
> into the Houston Amtrak station: one via Eureka
> and another via T&NO Jct.
> Where is the infamous Tower 55?
> Then from Houston to Beaumont there are two
> routes, one northerly thru Hull and another
> southerly thru Dayton.

Don't know how Nos. 1 and 2 get through Houston, but Tower 55 is not on the route in any case. It's in Fort Worth.


> Cardinal
>
> According Amtrak's timetable this train
> diverges from the NS at "Culpepper" onto the
> Buckingham Branch RR. According to the
> "Professional Railroad Atlas of North America" the
> divergence happens at Charlottesville. There is no
> Culpepper on the map.

The last station stop on NS is at Culpeper (note spelling), but the divergence point is at Orange, VA., onto an essentially Amtrak-only branch historically used by C&O passenger trains that connects to the Mountain Division/Buckingham Branch main at Gordonsville, VA. There is, to my knowledge, no direct connection between the C&O and SOU at Charlottesville -- at least, not one that a passenger train could use.


> There are many options for the train to take to
> get into Union Station from Dyer. Amtrak lists a
> UP/Belt Railway/NS and METRA routing. But even
> with that information it is still not clear which
> route I can be expected to travel. I know that
> this has been the subject of a lot of discussion
> here.

The Cardinal uses the UP through Thornton Junction and Yard Center, which I presume puts it through Dolton Jct. Beyond that, I really don't know the route either.

>
> River Runner/Lincoln/Texas Eagle
>
> What route does the River Runner use eastbound
> from Kansas City? On the map I see that there is
> about 8 miles of Kansas City Transportation track
> to a junction with the UP at Sheffield Jct. Is
> this what I can anticipate?
> Where is the Amtrak station in St. Louis and
> how do the River Runner/Lincoln Service and Texas
> Eagle trains access this station? It is not clear
> from the map.

Don't know the River Runner details in Kansas City.

The St. Louis Amtrak station is on the south edge of downtown near the 14th Street bridge over the various rail lines. The River Runners enter/exit to the west via the UP through Webster Groves and Kirkwood. The Texas Eagles use a branch that diverges from this route near Vandeventer Avenue on the city's southwest side and connects to the DeSoto Subdivision that runs down the west side of the Mississippi toward Poplar Bluff. Toward Chicago, all passenger trains normally cross the MacArthur Bridge and work their way through Venice and Madison on what is now Kansas City Southern/Union Pacific joint trackage up to Alton, Ill., and beyond. In a pinch, I believe they CAN use the Merchants' Bridge instead, in which case they run on the track that passes through the park at the Gateway Arch.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/14 08:19 by toledopatch.

John,

Regarding east out of KC:

the description of 8 miles east on KCT refer to the tracks east out of Union Station thru the main rail corridor east. KCT (terminal) was jointly owned.. (Some eastern trains did go west out of Union Sta, like The Q, CNW, Rock,, MILW NW, turning in the bottoms to the north and becoming eastbound (or northbound) below the bluff of downtown KCMO. Then, they crossed the river to the north side on their own bridges, attaining their rails. For the most part the crack varnish used the main corridor east out of downtown, and stayed south of the river.

The one used today by Amtrak is that corridor, KCT was and still is the operator, but all the standard named RRs used it to Sheffield Jct., which is a point where the RRs diverge onto their own routes.. So, passenger trains that would use the ex MP Sedalia sub, the traditional passenger route to StL, would turn southeast and head to Lees Summit, Pleasant Hill, Sedalia, etc. that was the route of the eagles, now the route of the mules.
Or
Passenger trains of the ATSF would travel the same eight miles over the KCT, then diverge a bit further east at Rock Creek Jct. Same for the GM&O to Mexico Mo. Today the SW Chief makes that run thru Rock Creek Jct. Which is a flyover jct..

Chico



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/14 16:16 by chico.

chico Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John,
>
> Regarding east out of KC:
>
> Today the SW Chief makes that
> run thru Rock Creek Jct. Which is a flyover jct..
>
> Chico

Just to add, the eight miles on the KCT are part of the former Santa Fe / Transcon, so it is a very busy piece of railroad. And you will cross at Tower 55 twice on your Texas Eagle trip when you go through Fort Worth: once arriving and once leaving. I'm envious of your trip, have a good one and please report how it goes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/14 16:55 by czephyr17.

>Sunset:

>The UP routing from the west is clear up to West Jct. then there are two possibilities for routes into the Houston Amtrak station: one via >Eureka and another via T&NO Jct.
>Where is the infamous Tower 55?
>Then from Houston to Beaumont there are two routes, one northerly thru Hull and another southerly thru Dayton.

From West Jct to the Amtrak Depot you are on the UP Terminal Sub which going east you make a right turn at Eureka and straight to the Depot.
Leaving Houston Amtrak goes east to Tower # 26 and makes a reverse move to access the Beaumont Sub which UP uses for eastbound traffic. The Lafayette Sub is used for westbound traffic both Subs come back together just west of the Amtrak Depot in Beaumont.

SP7615



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/14 17:34 by SP7615.

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cardinal
>
> According Amtrak's timetable this train diverges from the NS at "Culpepper" onto the
> Buckingham Branch RR. According to the "Professional Railroad Atlas of North America" the
> divergence happens at Charlottesville. There is no Culpepper on the map.

> Any help is much appreciated.


In actuality the divergence from NS to Buckingham Branch RR happens at Orange, Virginia, in front of the former passenger station, now a visitor information center. BB then goes by a different (and slower track speed) route to Charlottesville, where it stops at the same Charlottesville station used by Crescent to/from Atlanta (but on NS rails), then heads west over the Blue Ridge mountains toward Staunton and the New River Gorge. As I recall, it is not currently possible to use NS to Charlottesville station and then head west with the current track configuration. Too bad, because the BB track from Orange is not well maintained.

The track north from Orange to Culpepper is all NS, some of it 70 MPH. On a Friday night rush hour, it is faster to take Amtrak from Alexandria to Charlottesville -- on NS trackage -- than to drive a car.

hazegray and other posters are correct, that The Cardinal uses Buckingham Branch between Orange, VA (not a station stop), and Charlottesville, VA, although The Cardinal does use the former Southern station that's used by The Crescent. The ex-C&O station still stands farther east, actually closer to downtown, but hasn't been used by Amtrak for 30 years or more.

The Amtrak (ex-Southern) station at Charlottesville is shown here http://goo.gl/maps/M9KYa along with the diamond crossing. There is a connection between Buckingham Branch and NS in the southeast corner of the diamond, and it was used in years past. A couple of things appear to have changed since it was last used. First, as other posters on TO have mentioned in the past, NS simply refuses to allow its end of the interchange to be used by a passenger train. You get an idea of why if you click and slide the map to the southwest, where it looks like NS has built some additional tracks there are uses them for freight-car placement. That didn't used to be the case. Second, I'm pretty sure that BB (formerly C&O/Chessie/CSX) had a switch connecting the two main tracks just east of the diamond, which would have facilitated the interchange, but that switch appears to be gone now. It looks like you'd have to cross over between the two tracks closer to downtown, near 2nd Street, which is a long distance from the diamond.

If NS were to allow the move, this is how it appears it would work. Train 51, the westbound Cardinal, would come south to Charlottesville on NS, it would platform on Track 1, then pull south across the diamond into the interchange track, assuming it was clear of freight cars, then reverse northeast onto BB's south-most track and shove back to the crossover at 2nd Street, then proceed west through Charlottesville station, over the diamond and west toward Staunton. Eastbound Train 50 would do the opposite.

BB is in decent shape for the 22 miles between Charlottesville and Gordonsville, but the 9-mile segment between Gordonsville and Orange (the northern connection with NS) is slow, 30 m.p.h., I believe.

As to the interchange in Charlottesville, as noted, it could be used if there was a will and a desire. The backup move, while not optimal, is not that really problematic. A few minor adjustments might be necessary, but the track arrangements are suitable for this to occur.

I think the speed limit on the 9 mile segment might even be less than 30mph, and it certainly was on a previous trip I made. I'll find out in a week when I make the trip myself from DC to Cincinnati.

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Cardinal
>
> According Amtrak's timetable this train
> diverges from the NS at "Culpepper" onto the
> Buckingham Branch RR. According to the
> "Professional Railroad Atlas of North America" the
> divergence happens at Charlottesville. There is no
> Culpepper on the map.

> There are many options for the train to take to
> get into Union Station from Dyer. Amtrak lists a
> UP/Belt Railway/NS and METRA routing. But even
> with that information it is still not clear which
> route I can be expected to travel. I know that
> this has been the subject of a lot of discussion
> here.
>

The route given here:

http://www.on-track-on-line.com/amtfreq-wsch.shtml#car

is correct as of August 2013, when I rode it from Chicago to DC.

on-track-on-line.com is a good (and accurate) source both for routing and frequencies for the entire trip. I used it extensively on a trip that went LA - Portland - Chicago - DC - Philadelphia - Pittsburgh - DC - New York - Chicago - LA.

Orange to Gordonsville is 30mph. Also, due to the light usage of the Orange Sub (Orange to Gordonsville), trains are required to approach all public crossings prepared to stop and flag them. Around the wye at Gordonsville is 10mph and then 60mph to the Rivanna River. 15mph from there into Charlottesville station.

As far as the reverse move thru the connection, don't hold your breath. Norfolk Southern has said absolutely not to a regular reverse move of a live passenger train on their RR unless accompanied by a division superintendent. Also, when the BB put in new signals at JC Cabin( The NS diamond ) they took out the crossover to access the connection. To access it now would require a mile and a half reverse move on the BB east of the diamond thru the small yard in town.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/14 13:50 by LoadLimited.

Thanks, LoadLimited.

15 mph from the Rivanna River bridge all the way through town is a long way. I haven't been there in several years. When did the speed get dropped by that much? Trains 50/51 used to operate through there faster than that, perhaps 30 mph or so. 15 mph is just onerous,especially for that distance. Is it in effect all the way between the river and JC Cabin (the diamond), at the Amtrak station?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/14 05:57 by knotch8.

Charlottesville is a frequent topic. http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3055392,3055475#msg-3055475