Passenger Trains > Eminent Domain Moves Ahead on CA HSR

SACRAMENTO — A state board says the agency overseeing California's high-speed rail project can acquire four parcels in Fresno County through eminent domain if necessary.The State Public Works Board approved the request from the California High-Speed Rail Authority on Friday. That allows it to seize the land if officials cannot reach deals with the property owners.The authority so far has approval to seize 14 properties if needed.

The board also agreed with the authority in identifying 144 parcels that are in the path of the Fresno-to-Bakersfield route. That allows the authority to begin environmental testing but not to make any purchase offers.

Rail authority spokeswoman Lisa Marie Alley says the agency has made offers to 202 property owners before starting construction of the first 30-mile section, from Madera to Fresno.

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/04/11/3872748/high-speed-rail-allowed-to-seize.html?sp=/99/406/263/1256/#storylink=cpy

When the California High Speed Rail Project eventually grinds to its inevitable hugely expensive halt, what's the State going to do with all the Eminent Domain parcels it's seized and the mile or so of track that's been laid?

How will the multitudes of disillusioned Californians who couldn't wait to ride HSR from Fresno to Madera and back react? It could rival the Bundy Ranch range war in Nevada.

Fritz in HSV, AL

P.S. I'm not opposed to HSR, per se. I'm just skeptical of this project which deceptively was sold to the people of California as being far less expensive than it possibly could be.

Is this the United States of Soviet Union? Why can't they build the dam thing down the center of I-5 where they already own the land? (or at least next to it) instead of disrupting peoples lives who don't want it in the first place.

navy5717th Wrote:
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> When the California High Speed Rail Project
> eventually grinds to its inevitable hugely
> expensive halt, what's the State going to do with
> all the Eminent Domain parcels it's seized and the
> mile or so of track that's been laid?
>
> How will the multitudes of disillusioned
> Californians who couldn't wait to ride HSR from
> Fresno to Madera and back react? It could rival
> the Bundy Ranch range war in Nevada.
>
> Fritz in HSV, AL
>
> P.S. I'm not opposed to HSR, per se. I'm just
> skeptical of this project which deceptively was
> sold to the people of California as being far less
> expensive than it possibly could be.

You mean like the interstate highway system?

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> Is this the United States of Soviet Union? Why
> can't they build the dam thing down the center of
> I-5 where they already own the land? (or at least
> next to it) instead of disrupting peoples lives
> who don't want it in the first place.

You would have trucks crashing into it or it's pillars. Which flag do you fall under? Public Utilities pull this from time to time and I don't here you complaining about the power you use to run that computer you're sitting behind.

Ptolemy Wrote:
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> navy5717th Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When the California High Speed Rail Project
> > eventually grinds to its inevitable hugely
> > expensive halt, what's the State going to do
> with
> > all the Eminent Domain parcels it's seized and
> the
> > mile or so of track that's been laid?
> >
> > How will the multitudes of disillusioned
> > Californians who couldn't wait to ride HSR from
> > Fresno to Madera and back react? It could rival
> > the Bundy Ranch range war in Nevada.
> >
> > Fritz in HSV, AL
> >
> > P.S. I'm not opposed to HSR, per se. I'm just
> > skeptical of this project which deceptively was
> > sold to the people of California as being far
> less
> > expensive than it possibly could be.
>
> You mean like the interstate highway system?

Well there you go, so much for 'freeway'

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this the United States of Soviet Union? Why
> can't they build the dam thing down the center of
> I-5 where they already own the land? (or at least
> next to it) instead of disrupting peoples lives
> who don't want it in the first place.

Question #1: Does I5 have enough room in the median for the train?
Statement #1: Most of the people live on the East side of the Valley while I5 goes down the West side. A plus side to the I5 routing would be that no stations would be need (No passengers to get on or off) and this would decrease the amount of time going between the Bay Area and LA.

If you do a little research on the building of I%, I wouldn't be surprise Eminent Domain was used to also build it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/14 12:46 by sgerken.

Yes, I have plenty of wires running around my house and under my property. But they didn't necessitate taking my land. I wouldn't put a railway right of way in the same category. BTW, there are no wires leading to this computer. I'm on wifi :)

Ptolemy Wrote:
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> You mean like the interstate highway system?

More apples and oranges rhetoric from the HSR fanboy camp.

The guy who said the line should run down I5 would be better stated as run the line down HWY99. In either case, the politicos and the money grabbers thought this was best...

Posted from Mobile Safari

I wrote the following,

P.S. I'm not opposed to HSR, per se. I'm just
> skeptical of this project which deceptively was
> sold to the people of California as being far less
> expensive than it possibly could be.

… to which Ptolemy’s snappy response was:

“You mean like the interstate highway system?“


Ptolemy mustn’t understand the difference between the origins of the Interstate Highway System and the California High Speed Rail Project.

The former came into being as the culmination of studies and legislation passed by CONGRESS that extended back as far as 1939. The final authorization and funding act was passed in 1956 and signed into law by President Eisenhower. It was initially to cover the construction of 37,000(+) miles of highways. The cost estimates turned out to be erroneous, but the work continued Additional funding was authorized by Congress. Nevertheless, regardless of its cost, the interstate Highway System has proved to be successful and popular beyond anyone’s wildest dreams. The distinction is that it was created by Congress. It wasn’t sold as a bond issue to the American public.

The California High Speed Rail Project came into being thusly – excerpted from Wikipedia’s article on it:

“ … Initial funding for the project was approved by California voters on November 4, 2008, with the passage of Proposition 1A authorizing the issuance of US$9.95 billion in general obligation bonds for the project. The Authority released a revised business plan for the system on November 1, 2011, with a new cost estimate of $68.4 billion (in year-of-expenditure dollars)[4] for the Phase 1 Blended system, almost double the initial budget of $33 billion (2008 dollars) approved by referendum, along with a revised completion date was pushed from 2020 to 2033 if a Full Build option is chosen instead of the Blended System. This latest price estimate by the Authority for a Full Build option is $91.4 billion (in year-of-expenditure dollars), according to the 2012 Business Plan. …”

The voters of California were sold a bill a bill of goods –unless, of course you believe that $33 billion in 2008 dollars is the same as $68.4 billion three years later.

I used to think that Ptolemy was a very smart man – although he postulated that the Sun revolved around the earth. I guess I was wrong…

Fritz In HSV, AL

I sense another Kelo developing.

"first 30-mile section, from Madera to Fresno" ... the only problem with starting a project in the middle of end points is there's always a chance that's where it will begin and end ... virtually a railroad to nowhere ... i always believed in starting a project with the the most difficult sections first knowing the rest of the project will move ahead much smoother

ts1457 Wrote:
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> I sense another Kelo developing.


Could be. There are many similarities to the decision making in the Amtrak Boston electrification mess.

[As alluded, the state of Connecticut used eminent domain to wipe out an older neighborhood in New London CT. The idea was the state would then give the land to Pfizer as a gift, and Pfizer would bring lots of new scientist jobs and a new research center to this old manufacturing community.

The Supreme Court narrowly ruled that the town was within its rights to wipe out the neighborhood. However, Pfizer decided to close its existing small facility in New London and move those jobs elsewhere. They got a better offer. The Supreme Court's ruling essentially said that the whole thing stank to high heaven, but it wasn't illegal under state law.

In the end, the town won, but wiped out a good chunk of its tax base and middle class residents. The land eventually became a park, and a monument to municipal and state hubris.

The same guy who pushed for Amtrak to upgrade the Boston electrification through along the winding shore line to New London was also behind this seizure. Senator and former mayor etc Chris Dodd. Amtrak would have been far better off to build a cheaper, more direct line between New Haven and south of Providence where they could crank up their motors to 160 mph.]

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I have plenty of wires running around my
> house and under my property. But they didn't
> necessitate taking my land. I wouldn't put a
> railway right of way in the same category. BTW,
> there are no wires leading to this computer. I'm
> on wifi :)

You half to charge the battery somehow ;)

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Amtrak would have been far better off to build a cheaper, more direct line between New Haven and south of Providence where they > could crank up their motors to 160 mph.]

I agree Amtrak may have been better off with a direct line from RI to New Haven, but there's no way it would have been cheaper. A new line would have required acquisition of a hundred miles of ROW, construction of bridges and tunnels, grading and line construction, all before you pay to construct the same amount of catenary needed for the Shore Line.

Dave

I'll see it to believe it!

First off, the CaHSR line was put down near the Santa Fe Valley Line because the shorter (but at 220MPH that's only 20 mins.) route down I-5 would have been thru an earthquake prone area and thru the sub-divisible lands of the giant and politically powerful Tejon Ranch Co.(c.1852?) which has deep pockets to fight eminent domain and threatened to use it. CaHSR Valley Route uses other Tejon Ranch Co. land with it's blessings. Secondly: Neither end point: the SF Bay Area nor the LA Basin have the affordable acreage for a rail facility, whereas Fresno city has offered some 600 acres at low prices to pick from. There is no logic favoring the rail maintenance facility being at either end point location or in the middle (Fresno) since a breakdown can occur anywhere. The large number of new-hires needed to run and maintain the system will not likely be able to find and/or afford living in the end-point cities. Fresno on the other hand has some of the lower home prices in the state. And finally, going down the Valley adds about 600,000 more potential riders than the I-5 route which has no population centers at all. As for eminent domain, if it was okay for our founding fathers, then it's okay with me. Take your gripe to George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, although the concept of taking private land--at a fair price--for public use is ancient.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/14 22:42 by railwaybaron.

Eminent domain, imminent demise. Poetic.

I think ascribing the concept to Jefferson is misleading at best. The misuse is taking private land by the government for private purposes, ie steeling from Peter to give to Paul.

At any rate the number of parcels and the amount of compensation will be interesting. If there is widespread resistance the process will slow.
Compensation will be interesting. If you are putting people out of business in the valley for people to race by on their nickle well....

bob