Passenger Trains > All Aboard Florida -TV report on Jupiter FL meeting

Here's a bit more on recent news about AAF opposition (included a few clips of FEC freights):

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_15082.shtml

It was scary for me to watch this standing-room only crowd of NIMBY's yelling and finger pointing; and even a Democratic politician voicing opposition to a project they classified as "controversial".

This is the best example we have, so far, of passenger trains being financed, built, and run by a "private operator" that some folks feel is the way to do it--yet, look at the trouble this private operator is beginning to encounter.

My only hope is that this "we can't do it" spirit (so prevalent in America these days) won't discourage FEC Industries so that they drop the idea and spend their money elsewhere.

It will depend on how bad the opposition gets.

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/14 14:17 by floridajoe2001.

The opposition will drop off markedly, or at least will be better balanced by support from other parts of the community as soon as they come up with a scheme to provide some service to the communities in a meaningful way. Support at present is very muted because there is nothing worthy of support as far as many of those communities are concerned.

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The opposition will drop off markedly, or at least
> will be better balanced by support from other
> parts of the community as soon as they come up
> with a scheme to provide some service to the
> communities in a meaningful way. Support at
> present is very muted because there is nothing
> worthy of support as far as many of those
> communities are concerned.

+1

I mentioned in another thread that many people in the Jupiter - Stuart - Fort Pierce area conflated the AAF express service, possible expansion of Tri-Rail commuter service, and Amtrak on the FEC into one big "the trains are coming".

Most people that I've spoken with LIKE the idea of the trains coming to the area. But they need to benefit the local people.

I love this idea. I think it's great. I hope All Aboard Florida gets built and handles trainloads of passengers. It's a wonderful concept.

But I also recognize that All Aboard Florida has a huge public-relations battle ahead of it to try to get residents to stop opposing the project. I just looked at aerial maps from Jupiter, the town of the rowdy hearing with the non-committal Congressman, south toward West Palm Beach and counted 27 grade crossings. Right now, the FEC freights blow their whistles at most or all of them. With 32 AAF trains each day, that's a lot more whistling through all of these towns, and they receive nothing in return, since AAF will only make intermediate stops at W. Palm Beach and Ft. Lauderdale. AAF wants these trains to operate at 110 mph between W. Palm Beach and Cocoa, and the trains operate right through the center of most of the towns along the way.

This crossing, in Vero Beach, will be tough to engineer around: http://goo.gl/maps/k8AMi But this one, in Ocean Breeze Park just south of Jensen Beach, is my favorite, a traffic circle built across the tracks: http://goo.gl/maps/DFKwF

According to AAF, the line will operate alongside FL 528, the Beach Line Expressway, between Orlando Jetport and Cocoa, where it will join the existing, refurbished FEC right-of-way for the trip to Miami. That location is shown here: http://goo.gl/maps/m33lx

I encourage everyone to spend a little time and follow the aerial photos south to Miami, where the station will be here http://goo.gl/maps/UKRLR roughly on the same site as the old FEC passenger station. Look at the railroad, which is in excellent condition for what it does today, and think about the upgrades needed to handle 32 passenger trains each day at speeds of 125 mph between Orlando Jetport and Cocoa, 110 mph between Cocoa and West Palm Beach, and 80 mph between West Palm Beach and Miami. I didn't count all the crossings, none of which AAF says it will ask to be closed. I did look at how many there are, and I looked at all the development so close to the tracks, and at some of the track geometry, and I think that AAF has its hands full.

I hope they can do it. I really do. I'd love to ride their trains, and I hope the railroad will be engineered with enough capacity to handle non-AAF trains north of West Palm Beach, also.

Yes.

I pass the circle in the center of Jensen Beach a few times a day when my wife and I are in Florida. Even in the best of times, it is a real zoo. In addition to four roads and the railroad intersecting at a single point, there's also the main entrance / exit to a busy Publix shopping center. And, several enforced pedestrian crosswalks, a few local bars and an active down town.

Add in a hundred car FEC train slowing down for the curve or entering the siding at Rio, and traffic can be at a standstill for 15 minutes.

In my amateur analysis, AAF or the state or the feds are looking at at least five or six overpasses between Fort Pierce and Jupiter/Juno to get this thing done. People love the idea of fast passenger trains benefiting them, but they don't like slow, 150 car freights clogging the center of Stuart etc for 15 minutes at a clip.

I see the report is now calling it a $2.5 billion project which is the highest figure I've seen so far...it started at $1 billion in AAF's original announcement. Also in the article it says AAF is claiming to reduce highway traffic by a third...what a crock that is.
I remain in favor of the project, primarily to see a track laid between Orlando and Cocoa along the Beachline hoping eventually it will connect somehow to Port Canaveral. But, the rest of the planned route from Cocoa to Miami will be an operational disaster I'm afraid as it stands today because of all the crossings and passing through city cores where too many people still use the tracks as a walkway.

If AAF is a private company running trains on a private railroad with private money why are there public hearings? With the exception of the federal loan how is there any politics to be played? CSX has added somewhere north of 10 new long slow freight trains on tracks near me with out a single public hearing or blowhard politician drumming up votes.

I'm a big supporter of high speed rail, and hope AAF gets built. But those who dismiss local concern as ill-informed obstructionism should take a look at Google Streetview and satellite imagery of downtown Stuart and Jensen Beach. This isn't just the usual complaining about a few more train horns....the railroad is side by side with pedestrian areas and crowded streets. I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for significant mitigation measures before running 110mph trains through these towns.

Dave

People who complain about these things; simply can't see they are part of the "WE CAN'T DO IT" spirit that represrnts America's decline.

They seem to be blinded by thoughts like: "trains cost money"; or "railroads cross streets--how awful"; or "I won't use it so Nobody should have it".

They pay no attention to the wonderful benefits of this project like: the creation of many good paying jobs in Fla: Billions in new real estate development; or just the shear advancement that 110 MPH trains represent for Florida's convention and tourism business--not to mention the theme park and cruise ship tie-ins.

I finally got over the Billions of Federal dollars we refused to take for HSR five years ago; are we Floridians going to be this blind again; and this time refuse to accept even PRIVATE money for fast trains?

Last time we called it "wasteful Government spending"; this time we'll claim that trains shouldn't cross streets; or they blow horns. Such thinking is not what America was built on.

Joe

Part of the problem is it's not PRIVATE money...they're looking for Federal loans that most likely won't be paid back in full because the numbers simply don't add up. It will be a money loser the way it stands...I've heard $80 each way Orlando to Miami for a ticket. So, that means a family of 4 that wants to ride down to Miami from Orlando is going to pay $640 round trip to wind up in downtown Miami where there isn't much going on. They would still be looking at taking a taxi to South Beach. They would still need a taxi to get to the Port of Miami to catch a cruise ship. I just don't see the need...what we do need is service from Jacksonville to Miami on FEC with all the stops. That makes sense and would be used. I want more than anyone to see an expansion of passenger rail in the US but don't think AAF is the best way to do it.

To: DTrainshooter

I'm very curious. If you, as a railfan, "...just don't see the need"; then I'm at a loss to explain why a billion dollar company like FEC is willing to spend Billions on something for which you say there is no need. Are they just a bunch of "wasteful spenders" also?

Got any ideas?

Joe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/14 19:42 by floridajoe2001.

OK Joe - Here's my theory...it starts with a question. When a casino gets the go ahead to be built it will be constructed in record time...why? Because they're losing money every day it's not open. If All Aboard Florida was supposed to make money for Fortress then why wouldn't they use their own capital (they have a LOT) and avoid having to jump through all the hoops they have to now by applying for Federal loans? Wouldn't they want to get trains running and making money ASAP? I think they want to use our taxpayer money, in the form of FRA loans, to get the line from Orlando to Cocoa built and to get the line from Cocoa to Miami double tracked (as much as possible) and then down the road default on those loans but have all the improvements to the railroad made without costing them anything. Also, FECI (the real estate side of FEC) with have the value of their holdings enhanced because of the stations being built next to their properties...another winner for Fortress. What it comes down to is this...AAF isn't about building a profitable passenger carrying system and someone please tell me who is going to be buying tickets to ride this? A few businessmen who need to get from Orlando to Miami or vice versa who don't like to fly? I just don't see tourists riding it because of the cost and where the stops are...renting a car makes a lot more sense for them. Again, as a railfan and passenger train supporter I simply don't see AAF being a viable operation. Please tell me why I'm wrong...

Furthermore, I live in Melbourne exactly 3.4 miles from the FEC mainline at MP197 AKA Palm Bay South...I have followed this AAF project from the very beginning and initially was very excited. I had also followed the whole Amtrak/FEC test train thing and sat in on meetings where the City of Melbourne was going to locate an Amtrak station and then realized Amtrak simply didn't have the money to expand service to the FEC line. So, when AAF was announced in March 2012, I thought GREAT! A private company, FEC, is going to show the US gov't. how to add to our country's passenger train network. However, since that original AAF announcement, the price keeps going up and the date of startup (originally stated as 2014) keeps getting pushed back. It looks now like just another gov't boondoggle and I am disappointed. I really hope I'm wrong but at this point am very skeptical about AAF's intentions. I have to add that for those that take shots at Rep. Murphy...he's doing his job right now because many more of his constituents are against AAF than for it and it is an election year for him. And yes, there are many misinformed residents of Martin, Indian River and Palm Beach counties where AAF is supposed to run but they do have some valid concerns. Let me ask...if you owned a home near the tracks in Jupiter or Stuart and knew that 32 more train per day were coming that were also going to hurt your property value wouldn't you be upset too? Even as a railfan I can sympathize with them. Remember, most people don't love trains like we do and AAF trains passing by aren't doing anything positive for these people in any way shape or form. Everything about those 32 additional trains is bad for these residents...

I always like to try to come up with ideas about things I really don't know about. I'll give it a shot here.

I hope AAF can pull it off as a private investment. I don't question its motives, but I think it has a real estate play to it besides the passenger revenue. I think eventually we will see a few stops added up the coast when it needs some more real estate plays. However I think the additional stations will require that some incremental improvements in running time be made to keep the overall running times the same. AAF needs to assure the area that there will be a few more stations in the future.

I don't have a problem if the state helps with improving the situation through Jupiter and Stuart. Getting freight trains out would help a lot. I see that FEC and CSX have a connection in West Palm Beach. I could envision a bypass for freight by routing FEC freights on the CSX north of West Palm Beach as far as Indiantown, then building a new line due north of there along route 609-709, I believe, to where it intersects the FEC's old line from Ft. Pierce to Lake Harbor, then rejoin the FEC main at Ft. Pierce. With the freights gone you could use steeper approaches to bridges and overpasses, so you could replace the movable bridge in Jupiter with a railroad bridge that clears the channel, as well as providing overpasses to grade separate the railroad from several roads in the area.

We had a little project to build a coal terminal on our railroad in County Durham, in England. We chose a site that was a former steel mill, a brownfield site, and we created jobs. We had to have a public hearing because we needed "planning permission" even though it was private money, our money. A plethora of NIMBY's showed up. My favorite was the guy who showed up and said, "I didn't mind living next to a steel mill but I don't want to live next to a coal terminal..." Really, he said that. So we won the first round, and then the NIMBY's appealed, and they started lining up people who didn't even live there to show up at the next hearing. So we went to the towns that would have the truck traffic if the coal terminal WASN'T built, and the coal had to be moved by truck instead. Some of these people lived in houses inches away from the road, and it was easy for them to imagine the danger.... So our NIMBY's outnumbered their NIMBY's. Their NIMBY's were dismayed that our citizens were opposed to their views. It was almost like a football (soccer) game in the parking lot...

So AAF needs to line up those who benefit from this to show up at public hearings.

They have a good plan. It will be highly beneficial to the state. But they have to shout more loudly than the opposition.

PS: Two things I like about their plan: One is they will assign you a parking space when you make the reservation, so you don't have to worry about where to park. Another is they will make your trip door to door with multi-stop shuttles, so you don't have to call a taxi... Both of those are innovative. We do a lot of destination shuttles, but not at origin generally. They have thought this out well.

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People who complain about these things; simply
> can't see they are part of the "WE CAN'T DO IT"
> spirit that represrnts America's decline.
>
> They seem to be blinded by thoughts like: "trains
> cost money"; or "railroads cross streets--how
> awful"; or "I won't use it so Nobody should have
> it".
>
> They pay no attention to the wonderful benefits of
> this project like: the creation of many good
> paying jobs in Fla: Billions in new real estate
> development; or just the shear advancement that
> 110 MPH trains represent for Florida's convention
> and tourism business--not to mention the theme
> park and cruise ship tie-ins.
>
> I finally got over the Billions of Federal dollars
> we refused to take for HSR five years ago; are we
> Floridians going to be this blind again; and this
> time refuse to accept even PRIVATE money for fast
> trains?
>
> Last time we called it "wasteful Government
> spending"; this time we'll claim that trains
> shouldn't cross streets; or they blow horns. Such
> thinking is not what America was built on.
>
> Joe

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always like to try to come up with ideas about
> things I really don't know about. I'll give it a
> shot here.
>
> I hope AAF can pull it off as a private
> investment. I don't question its motives, but I
> think it has a real estate play to it besides the
> passenger revenue. I think eventually we will see
> a few stops added up the coast when it needs some
> more real estate plays. However I think the
> additional stations will require that some
> incremental improvements in running time be made
> to keep the overall running times the same. AAF
> needs to assure the area that there will be a few
> more stations in the future.
>
> I don't have a problem if the state helps with
> improving the situation through Jupiter and
> Stuart. Getting freight trains out would help a
> lot. I see that FEC and CSX have a connection in
> West Palm Beach. I could envision a bypass for
> freight by routing FEC freights on the CSX north
> of West Palm Beach as far as Indiantown, then
> building a new line due north of there along route
> 609-709, I believe, to where it intersects the
> FEC's old line from Ft. Pierce to Lake Harbor,
> then rejoin the FEC main at Ft. Pierce. With the
> freights gone you could use steeper approaches to
> bridges and overpasses, so you could replace the
> movable bridge in Jupiter with a railroad bridge
> that clears the channel, as well as providing
> overpasses to grade separate the railroad from
> several roads in the area.

Building high bridges and bypass tracks is a non starter from the get go. It would take millions of dollars and years of planning and environmental studies before the first spoonful of dirt is turned. If the plan is to run 110mph then major improvements such as quad gates to every crossing will be necessary. It wouldn't take much more to make the crossings quite zones. I would think that would be an improvement for homeowners even with 32 extra trains whipping by in a few seconds with out sounding a horn.

The Stuart issue is exceptionally problematic, and a look at any satellite view will show why.

After the railroad bisects the center of Jensen Beach (good luck with a second track in there), the railroad swings west along the bay in a wide arc, and turns south to go across the draw bridge. As noted, and unlike Jupiter Inlet, the area west of the bridge is the center of the local boating community. The north and south forks of the St Lucie River are filled with boat yards and luxury boating communities. President Obama has taken vacations at one yacht golf community in there. These are powerful people. And their interests will be respected.

Once over the old 15 mph Stuart bridge, the road curves through the center of Stuart (20 mph?), and curves again to line up with the straightaway at Florida Avenue. In the area of where the pols talked up the train station location.

The obvious solution would be to draw a brand new bridge from the point where the line turns west on the north shore at Rio siding, across the wide part of St Lucie inlet, and put in a new mile long segment on land east of the hospital, along the edge of the airport, and tie in with the current line near the fairgrounds. But that deals with more rich folks, their water views, their neighborhoods, and throws in some economically challenged areas to boot. Probably a few wetlands, as well.

howeld Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Building high bridges and bypass tracks is a non
> starter from the get go. It would take millions
> of dollars and years of planning and environmental
> studies before the first spoonful of dirt is
> turned....

True. I wouldn't hold up the project for that. The residents would probably be more supportive of those improvements when the trains are already running.

In the case of Jupiter, building a double track high bridge that straddles the current bridge in use looks like it would be the way to go.

I don't think the bypass would be as big of a deal. It would be around fifteen miles of new track, mostly straight in a not heavily populated area.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once over the old 15 mph Stuart bridge, the road
> curves through the center of Stuart (20 mph?), and
> curves again to line up with the straightaway at
> Florida Avenue. In the area of where the pols
> talked up the train station location.

I don't see Florida Avenue. Is it Florida Street?

I'm curious how much clearance over the channel the US1 bridge provides.

If the long freights bypassed the area and only short local freights were permitted, steeper approaches could be used on a new bridge and overpasses. I think you could work something out using the current ROW and the same general area for a high bridge. You would be able to tell the people of Stuart that saving time with a new bridge would allow a station stop to be added in Stuart.