Passenger Trains > NE Corridor: Engineer qual both elec & diesel?

The NE Corridor employs both electric & diesel motive power. Would an NE Corridor engineer be qualified on both types of motive power?

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA

Yes

Dave

absolutely ... an engineer is an engineer is an engineer

>absolutely ... an engineer is an engineer is an engineer

Not quite. No Atk engineer, on- or off-corridor, who has never qualified on the electrics can run an electric ("can" meaning "is permitted to by Atk"). It's a lead pipe cinch that all Zone 1 and 2 (the NEC) engineers are qualified to run electrics. For a long time choo-choo U made all of their off-corridor students learn about electrics, but finally they saw the idiocy in this and stopped (same thing with the Rules department forcing engineers learn about ATS and/or cab signals when they worked out of crewbases over territories which don't have these signal systems).

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> >absolutely ... an engineer is an engineer is an
> engineer
>
> Not quite. No Atk engineer, on- or off-corridor,
> who has never qualified on the electrics can run
> an electric ("can" meaning "is permitted to by
> Atk"). It's a lead pipe cinch that all Zone 1 and
> 2 (the NEC) engineers are qualified to run
> electrics. For a long time choo-choo U made all of
> their off-corridor students learn about electrics,
> but finally they saw the idiocy in this and
> stopped (same thing with the Rules department
> forcing engineers learn about ATS and/or cab
> signals when they worked out of crewbases over
> territories which don't have these signal
> systems).

thankX for the update ... i was answering the question as i took it that he was specifically asking about the NEC territory ... i wasn't aware of the off corridor present qualifying practices ... even tho it's a national roster the edge would go to NEC qualified engineers ... having to qualify on all 3 points you mentioned

Yes. Trains 66 and 67, which run at night, have schedules that are slow enough to be run with diesel power. It is not uncommon for these trains to operate with diesel power between Washington and Newark or between Harold (just east of New York) and Boston due to sections of the catenary being de-energized at night for repair and maintenance work.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
>
>
>
> thankX for the update ... i was answering the
> question as i took it that he was specifically
> asking about the NEC territory ... i wasn't aware
> of the off corridor present qualifying practices
> ... even tho it's a national roster the edge would
> go to NEC qualified engineers ... having to
> qualify on all 3 points you mentioned

I'm curious as to what you mean by the term "edge" in your statement. All Engrs. in the system are covered by the same CBA and thus receive the same hourly wage no matter what location they work in as well as the right to displace a junior employee if their seniority allows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/14 07:29 by Molino.

Molino Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > thankX for the update ... i was answering the
> > question as i took it that he was specifically
> > asking about the NEC territory ... i wasn't
> aware
> > of the off corridor present qualifying
> practices
> > ... even tho it's a national roster the edge
> would
> > go to NEC qualified engineers ... having to
> > qualify on all 3 points you mentioned
>
> I'm curious as to what you mean by the term "edge"
> in your statement. All Engrs. in the system are
> covered by the same CBA and thus receive the same
> hourly wage no matter what location they work in
> as well as the right to displace a junior employee
> if their seniority allows.

engineers running outside the NEC aren't required to qualify on electrics or ATS/Cab Signals if their territory isn't equipped with it ... so an NEC engineer could go anywhere already having these qualifications unlike an engineer not required who has to get these qualifications if he/she chooses to run on territory so equipped

Yes I'm well aware of that, however there is no edge in any way since there is no competition. Only seniority prevails.. all employees would be trained on equipment if needed for that territory.

Now if the Republican's get both houses of Congress and grab the white house in two years, then there very well could be a scramble to hold any remaining jobs. Of course that's the worse case scenario for the employees.

Thanks gang

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA

Molino Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes I'm well aware of that, however there is no
> edge in any way since there is no competition.
> Only seniority prevails.. all employees would be
> trained on equipment if needed for that territory.
>
>
> Now if the Republican's get both houses of
> Congress and grab the white house in two years,
> then there very well could be a scramble to hold
> any remaining jobs. Of course that's the worse
> case scenario for the employees.

hey i based my financial decisions back in 1980 when Reagan got in office ... i only had a handful of years at that time with the company and was still green to how Amtrak was affected by politics ... i put off buying a house because of his kill Amtrak rhetoric ... worse personal financial decision i made in my life ... i learned throughout the 38 years with Amtrak to go ahead with any plans i had planned or was planning on making on my own financial situation and not based on any Congressional, Senatorial or Presidential incumbency

>even tho it's a national roster the edge would go to NEC qualified engineers

>so an NEC engineer could go anywhere already having these qualifications unlike an engineer not required who has to get these qualifications if he/she chooses to run on territory so equipped

A few clarifications: the only "edge" involved is seniority (most of the protected, prior rights engineers who came over from the freight RRs have retired). Engineers have to be qualified on the Rules, the RR's TTSI, equipment, and territories over which they operate. So an on-corridor, NEC, NORAC-qualified engineer, who went to off-corridor to Chicago or LA would have to 1) have sufficient seniority to bid there (bidding between zones is a complex process), 2) qualify on the GCOR, the TTSI and territories for the RRs over which he was to operate (this is where ATS/cab signal things enter into the situation), and 3) be qualified on the [non-electric] locomotives he is going to be running. No different than an off-corridor, GCOR engineer going to the NEC having to qualify on NORAC, the NEC's TTSI (with cab signals), and learn about electric locomotives. One of my ex-students, who trained and earned his certificate in California, is now working the NEC out of NYC.

Edited to add:

>Now if the Republican's get both houses of Congress and grab the white house in two years, then there very well could be a scramble to hold any remaining jobs. Of course that's the worse case scenario for the employees.

Not unless trains are discontinued (a situation which has always been true for the freight RRs). There are legal protections for current employees which preserve the labor contract conditions whenever a contract operation changes hands (as in Atk to Herzog or Herzog to Veolia). Similar protections obtain in the transit industry too and, from what I've discovered recently, also true in NZ and Australia. So I think it's safe to say it's true in just about all of the Western World.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/14 13:27 by EtoinShrdlu.

Yes but let's not forget the fact that the Labor Protection Provision's that are addressed in the C-2 Law were written by lawyers who also crafted the terms that would take affect if a National system train was taken off VS a State supported train. In other words the LPP clause would be a fond memory if a State supported train (e.g. Downeaster) VS the Long Distance service was discontinued.

I'm convinced this is one of the motivating factors for the push to have State support replacing Federal support.


And as far as Mr. Reagan is concerned...have you seen a caboose lately?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/14 14:00 by Molino.

>Yes but let's not forget the fact that the Labor Protection Provision's that are addressed in the C-2 Law were written by lawyers who also crafted the terms that would take affect if a National system train was taken off VS a State supported train. In other words the LPP clause would be a fond memory if a State supported train (e.g. Downeaster) VS the Long Distance service was discontinued.

If a state took over a current Atk LDT route, directly or via a contract operator, then "they" would have to offer employment to those already operating the train, using the same labor contract (the Amtrak one) as a starting point in the negotiations for the new operator's labor contract. The idea is to prevent using the the government's and funding agencies's contract bidding processes as a means of reducing wages and worsening working conditions. If on the other hand, the LDT was discontinued, and the state then "reinstated" it some months later, you can bet your bottom dollar they -the state pols and funding agencies- would try to call it "new service" in order to get around this so-called issue. Then the lawyers would probably reap windfall incomes for a while.

If you're talking about termination of an LDT service, like the SLC-PDX and SLC-LAX trains were 15-20 years ago, New York Dock no longer applies, and both parties (Atk and the Unions) have to negotiate relief for those affected.