Passenger Trains > Comparison: CAF vs Nippon Sharyo

On Tuesday a long thread opened as a result of the RAILPACE editorial regarding the length of time CAF is taking to get the Viewliner II cars delivered. I just came up with a comparison that puts the matter into better prospective.
In Aug. 2010 Metra's Board of Directors approved a $585 order for 160 new Highliner MU cars for the ex-IC Metra Electric Line. Awardee Nippon Sharyo built a factory in Rochelle, IL where the cars were assembled. The first new Highliner was released in Sept. 2012; as of this writing about half the order has been delivered.
Amtrak and CAF announed the 130-car Viewliner II order on July 23,2010. To date 4 cars have been released for testing.
I am not an equipment engineer and have not visited either plant. I am merely suggesting citing an example of a foreign company who, like CAF, was awarded a contract to build cars for a US railroad (MU's that have propulsion equipment as well as passenger amenities), and delivered their product in about half the time that CAF is taking. I believe this comparison raises some questions.
Andy

CAF has a notorious reputation in North America, as being late, and well, quality issues always seem to be the root cause. Houston Metro is having issues with their new LRVs being delivered. Other properties who have gone to CAF for vehicles have had their share of issues.

CCT41 Wrote:
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> CAF has a notorious reputation in North America,
> as being late, and well, quality issues always
> seem to be the root cause. Houston Metro is having
> issues with their new LRVs being delivered. Other
> properties who have gone to CAF for vehicles have
> had their share of issues.


Sacramento's RT Light Rail also has CAF vehicles.
And I know they wasn't happy with their

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival

twropr Wrote:
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> I am not an equipment engineer and have not
> visited either plant. I am merely suggesting
> citing an example of a foreign company who, like
> CAF, was awarded a contract to build cars for a US
> railroad (MU's that have propulsion equipment as
> well as passenger amenities), and delivered their
> product in about half the time that CAF is taking.
> I believe this comparison raises some questions.

> Andy

=============================================

You have a point there, Andy; and it may come down to the way Amtrak, as opposed
to Metra, wrote their bid specifications. Prospective builders will structure their
bids according to the specifications; and the builder can only be held to what the
contract says. If the specifications and contract terms are loose, so that
workmanship can be slack, adherence to deadlines only approximate, inspection
terms not binding, and financial conditions poorly defined, a lot of problems
can arise. Perhaps they did, since Amtrak, assumedly according to contract terms,
issued a several-month STOP WORK order on the Viewliner IIs.

There is a longtime member of TO who sat on the other side of the bargaining
table from Amtrak, negotiating his railroad's contract with them. He's already
characterized Amtrak's negotiators as not being the brightest bulbs in the box.
This may have nothing at all to do with Amtrak's equipment people and their spec
writers and negotiators. I hope it doesn't. But in yet another area, commuter
railroad operations contracts, Amtrak has done poorly of late, being disqualified
from even being considered on one of the biggest ones because its bid did not meet
specifications. How hard is it to meet the specifications that your customer set
forth for your bid? And Amtrak's bid on the Indiana contract for the Hoosier State
was poorly structured and rife with numbers that didn't make sense.

Those who sell sour grapes may now claim that Amtrak sabotaged its own bids so as NOT
to win...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/14 16:24 by GenePoon.

Breda seems to keep overcoming their long history of poor workmanship and performance by likely lowballing and bribing their way into contracts, perhaps CAF follows similar methods?

There was a statement a few lines above regarding contract and bid specifications wondering how hard could it be to follow them. Based on personal experience, it can be a real pain in the butt!! I have seen specs written in which page margins, type face (font and size), and quality of paper were to be considered. Some of these details were in very fine print and minutiae that reasonable folks (and most of the time, I am considered reasonable) would skip over to get to the meat of the specs. Funding agencies are apparently not reasonable folks and were apparently looking for easy ways (IMHO) to avoid having to look/read through materials from several prospective bidders. Granted, I was dealing with federal funding agencies but...

Bruce

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Breda seems to keep overcoming their long history
> of poor workmanship and performance by likely
> lowballing and bribing their way into contracts,
> perhaps CAF follows similar methods?

=======================================================

If such is the case where government funds are involved, there is the chance
of heavy fines and jail time for lowballing, bribes and preference to vendors.

But that doesn't seem to be enough to stop the practices...several times a year
such irregularities are found in bidding processes.

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> darkcloud Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Breda seems to keep overcoming their long
> history
> > of poor workmanship and performance by likely
> > lowballing and bribing their way into
> contracts,
> > perhaps CAF follows similar methods?
>
> ==================================================
> =====
>
> If such is the case where government funds are
> involved, there is the chance
> of heavy fines and jail time for lowballing,
> bribes and preference to vendors.
>
> But that doesn't seem to be enough to stop the
> practices...several times a year
> such irregularities are found in bidding
> processes.

If this was the case. Maybe LA's Metro would have got more Light Rail Cars from Bread, I mean Breda.

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival

Here in the Los Angeles area, we have Nippon Sharyo light rail cars that are still giving good service after 24 years on the Metro Blue Line. The Gold Line fleet is now all Breda LRVs, which were late in arrival and weigh more than they were supposed to. There is even a coterie of local railfans who take every opportunity to heap scorn on the Breda "sardine cans from Hell". I don't think they're as awful as some of the guys seem to think, but I do know that Breda proposed building a railway car plant south of downtown LA if LA Metro would agree to buy from them. The local building trades members were backing this proposal vigorously, but there was too much "wiggle room" for Breda in the contract and Metro eventually turned thumbs down. After this fiasco, Metro finally signed a contract with Kinki Sharyo, who are building a plant in Palmdale (still in Los Angeles County) to build new cars for the Gold Line and Expo Line extension, and provide replacements for the older existing cars.