Passenger Trains > More European Sleeper Trains Likely to Terminate

European sleeper trains appear to continue a trend of disfavor, adding to the discontinuance of Barcelona-Zurich and Barcelona-Milan in 2012 and Paris-Madrid and Paris-Barcelona in 2013.

"End of City Night Line sleepers to Copenhagen in December?

It now looks almost certain that all CNL sleeper trains between Copenhagen and Amsterdam/Cologne, Basel & Prague will cease from the timetable change in mid-December."

From "The Man in Seat 61: News"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/14 16:15 by reindeerflame.

Only in Europe--sleepers are being taken off because there are so many super fast day trains that riders rather get home late and sleep in there own beds than sleep the night away on one of Mr. Nagelmayer's contraptions. Too bad, it saves a day for tourists.

I'm booked on two CNL trains next month. On their web site it also shows a couple of new services. So it goes both ways. Super fast trains are fine but in my case, ending my day with a flight to Vienna from Montenegro, the CNL train will get me to my next destination early morning whereas the "super fast" train wouldn't get me there until sometime in the middle of the night....as there is no "super fast" train on the route I need. On my return, it's on the train at 17:51 in Zurich, then off the next morning at Frankfurt Flughaffen in plenty of time for my flight home. No hotel needed. Cost between CNL and a top hotel is about a wash if not cheaper. Lets hope that some of their more popular services continue.

railwaybaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only in Europe--sleepers are being taken off
> because there are so many super fast day trains
> that riders rather get home late and sleep in
> there own beds than sleep the night away on one of
> Mr. Nagelmayer's contraptions. Too bad, it saves a
> day for tourists.


Actually, in Europe sleeper trains these days are terminated because of politics of the railways running them rather than demand.

This is something that keeps on being missed time and time again in these discussions!!

I can pretty much asure you that, when they were daily ((till, what, early 2013?), Paris-Madrid and Paris-Barcelona had very healthy loads, and still would have had them even with the through high-speed service (which takes 6 hours to Barcelona, with nothing between Paris and Madrid).

Pretty sure that the threatened CNL withdrawal from Copenhagen has nothing to do with passenger loads either....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/14 18:14 by chs7-321.

chs7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> railwaybaron Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Only in Europe--sleepers are being taken off
> > because there are so many super fast day trains
> > that riders rather get home late and sleep in
> > there own beds than sleep the night away on one
> of
> > Mr. Nagelmayer's contraptions. Too bad, it saves
> a
> > day for tourists.
>
>
> Actually, in Europe sleeper trains these days are
> terminated because of politics of the railways
> running them rather than demand.
>
> This is something that keeps on being missed time
> and time again in these discussions!!
>
> I can pretty much asure you that, when they were
> daily ((till, what, early 2013?), Paris-Madrid and
> Paris-Barcelona had very healthy loads, and still
> would have had them even with the through
> high-speed service (which takes 6 hours to
> Barcelona, with nothing between Paris and
> Madrid).
>
> Pretty sure that the threatened CNL withdrawal
> from Copenhagen has nothing to do with passenger
> loads either....


Healthy loads do not always translate into financial success, however. It is unlikely that CNL would terminate an existing service if it was financially viable, as HSR politics do not enter the discussion as far as Copenhagen is concerned.

Also, while a nice experience, most people would prefer a hotel room with more space, and my experience is that for 2 people, a room on the sleeper is quite cramped. It may be a better travel experience for single travelers. There is also the problem with the constant rattling that isn't the best.

Finally, Paris-Madrid service is available via transfer between HSR services at Barcelona.

reindeerflame Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Healthy loads do not always translate into
> financial success, however. It is unlikely that
> CNL would terminate an existing service if it was
> financially viable, as HSR politics do not enter
> the discussion as far as Copenhagen is concerned.

Is the proposal to terminate sleepers to Copenhagen based on finances? Or maybe DSB wants to free up slots on the Great Belt corridor and chose to refuse CNL access?

I have heard and read a lot of things, from people who would be better informed about this than me or, I'm guessing, you that, after adjusting overnight frequencies to account for reduced demand due to improved daytime services, a number of overnight trains were then cancelled due to factors other than market demand and financial performance. Operational "unwillingness" is one......misguided corporate strategy is another.

It might sound "off", but once you consider events like FS refusing to operate cross-border daytime services with OBB/DB and their fiasco with the Cisalpino joint venture with SBB, or the decay of non-TGV services in France (suburban rail transit included), it sounds within the scope of things. These days, the management of many European railways can give the management of Amtrak a run for its money in the "questionable decision" department.

> Also, while a nice experience, most people would
> prefer a hotel room with more space, and my
> experience is that for 2 people, a room on the
> sleeper is quite cramped. It may be a better
> travel experience for single travelers. There is
> also the problem with the constant rattling that
> isn't the best.

Maybe, maybe not. But there sees to be a good pool of travellers of the category that use overnight trains, of all ages and backgrounds, to ensure healthy passenger loads on many overnighters.

> Finally, Paris-Madrid service is available via
> transfer between HSR services at Barcelona.

And this will take 8-9 hours during the day........the sleeper was 12-13 hours, but during the night. This would count as a severe service reduction.....

chs7-321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reindeerflame Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Healthy loads do not always translate into
> > financial success, however. It is unlikely
> that
> > CNL would terminate an existing service if it
> was
> > financially viable, as HSR politics do not
> enter
> > the discussion as far as Copenhagen is
> concerned.
>
> Is the proposal to terminate sleepers to
> Copenhagen based on finances? Or maybe DSB wants
> to free up slots on the Great Belt corridor and
> chose to refuse CNL access?
>
> I have heard and read a lot of things, from people
> who would be better informed about this than me
> or, I'm guessing, you that, after adjusting
> overnight frequencies to account for reduced
> demand due to improved daytime services, a number
> of overnight trains were then cancelled due to
> factors other than market demand and financial
> performance. Operational "unwillingness" is
> one......misguided corporate strategy is another.
>
> It might sound "off", but once you consider events
> like FS refusing to operate cross-border daytime
> services with OBB/DB and their fiasco with the
> Cisalpino joint venture with SBB, or the decay of
> non-TGV services in France (suburban rail transit
> included), it sounds within the scope of things.
> These days, the management of many European
> railways can give the management of Amtrak a run
> for its money in the "questionable decision"
> department.
>
> > Also, while a nice experience, most people
> would
> > prefer a hotel room with more space, and my
> > experience is that for 2 people, a room on the
> > sleeper is quite cramped. It may be a better
> > travel experience for single travelers. There
> is
> > also the problem with the constant rattling
> that
> > isn't the best.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. But there sees to be a good
> pool of travellers of the category that use
> overnight trains, of all ages and backgrounds, to
> ensure healthy passenger loads on many
> overnighters.
>
> > Finally, Paris-Madrid service is available via
> > transfer between HSR services at Barcelona.
>
> And this will take 8-9 hours during the
> day........the sleeper was 12-13 hours, but during
> the night. This would count as a severe service
> reduction.....


Well, these are all democratic countries, and people can voice their complaints. Not every decision made by government is going to be popular or wise.

I believe CNL is a DB-affiliated company. Perhaps there are higher and better uses for the slots than an overnight train. I think if CNL was making money, they would object to withdrawal of the service.

I consider the day trip option, Paris-Madrid, to be quite satisfactory; it provides the opportunity to view a lot of the countryside. Probably most Europeans would prefer air travel on longer segments like this. On a recent trip, I was impressed with the relatively low fares between Bergen, Norway and Copenhagen on Norwegian Air, booked less than 20 hours before departure....to get my trip back on schedule after catenary failure on the Oslo-Bergen rail line eliminated my planned travel on the Bergen-Oslo sleeper.

Meanwhile, Lisbon-Madrid remains as an option for the night train afficiando; I plan to take this in 2016 if it is still running.