Passenger Trains > Restoring Amtrak's National Limited

What line segments are missing? I am especially interested in Pittsburgh to St. louis via Columbus, OH and Terre Haute, IN. Thanks for all feedback! I also want to extend the route to Denver over the Kansas Pacific from Kansas City.

brc600 Wrote:
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> What line segments are missing? I am especially
> interested in Pittsburgh to St. louis via
> Columbus, OH and Terre Haute, IN. Thanks for all
> feedback! I also want to extend the route to
> Denver over the Kansas Pacific from Kansas City.

Much of the right of way between Indy and Pittsburgh is either gone or servilely downgraded. To do it, you would like have to use the ex NYC up to Crestline Ohio to join the Water Level Route.

Indy-Dayton is gone and so is Mingo Jct-Pittsburgh as a through route.

Bob

Terre Haute to Indianapolis is also gone with the exception of short segments in the Indianapolis area. John

In Pittsburgh, the National Limited used two different routings to and from the Amtrak Station. One of the routings used the Panhandle Bridge and tunnel along the edge of Downtown Pittsburgh, both of which are now used for light rail transit.

Another portion of the National Limited's Pittsburgh route from Carnegie to Esplen is now a busway.

Between Carnegie and Steubenville, Ohio the National Limited route is now the Panhandle Trail. Much of the trail has been built, but some segments are yet to be developed.

There's no need to restore the National Limited, as your city-pair (PGH-STL) is adequately served by an existing Amtrak service.

Best identify another project to promote!

brc600 Wrote:
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> I also want to extend the route to
> Denver over the Kansas Pacific from Kansas City.

Let's save the line first that we already have across sparsely populated parts of Kansas.

brc600 Wrote:
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> I also want to extend the route to Denver over the
> Kansas Pacific from Kansas City.

I envy your rich fantasy life. Personally, I would've liked to have won that last big Mega Millions lotto jackpot. Since we ARE dreaming, after all.

If you can get Amtrak to re-instate ANY route that they've worked so hard at scrapping, let me, and NARP, know.

Indiana_Trainman Wrote:
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> Terre Haute to Indianapolis is also gone with the
> exception of short segments in the Indianapolis
> area. John

The PRR is gone. The parallel ex-NYC is in good shape under CSX.

Bob

At Effingham IL whose track does IC/CN cross? Whose joint depot with the IC? Thanks!

bnsfbob Wrote:
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> Indiana_Trainman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Terre Haute to Indianapolis is also gone with
> the
> > exception of short segments in the Indianapolis
> > area. John
>
> The PRR is gone. The parallel ex-NYC is in good
> shape under CSX.
>
> Bob

brc600 Wrote:
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> At Effingham IL whose track does IC/CN cross?
> Whose joint depot with the IC? Thanks!
>
> bnsfbob Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Indiana_Trainman Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Terre Haute to Indianapolis is also gone with
> > the
> > > exception of short segments in the
> Indianapolis
> > > area. John
> >
> > The PRR is gone. The parallel ex-NYC is in good
> > shape under CSX.
> >
> > Bob

The CSX ex-PRR. The roughly parallel ex-NYC via Pana is largely abandoned.

Bob

Can't believe that all the track from esplen to Weirton Jct is gone, although I guess it was torn out some time ago.
Did any trains run over it other than amtrak post 1971? Overall, it was slow, hilly and curvy.



RuleG Wrote:
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>





In Pittsburgh, the National Limited used two
> different routings to and from the Amtrak Station.
> One of the routings used the Panhandle Bridge and
> tunnel along the edge of Downtown Pittsburgh, both
> of which are now used for light rail transit.
>
> Another portion of the National Limited's
> Pittsburgh route from Carnegie to Esplen is now a
> busway.
>
> Between Carnegie and Steubenville, Ohio the
> National Limited route is now the Panhandle Trail.
> Much of the trail has been built, but some
> segments are yet to be developed.

If one were to try to restore a Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St. Louis train today, the most direct way would be the ex-PRR route along the Ohio River via Rochester, PA to Mingo Junction, OH, then go west on the Ohio Central to Columbus. This would require a lot of upgrading to be suitable for passenger trains. Alternatively, it could go west via Alliance and Crestline and use the now moribund connecting track to get onto the Big Four for Columbus.

The Columbus-Indianapolis segment would most likely use the ex-T&OC up to Ridgeway and then west on the Big Four. This also would require significant improvement, particularly in regards to signalling, although CSX would probably welcome a publicly-funded signal system and siding upgrades. Between Ridgeway and Indianapolis, there is plenty of surplus operating capacity.

Indy-St. Louis would be the easy part. But Indy-Pittsburgh would be so convoluted that it's not going to happen. Why is it needed?

pdt Wrote:
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> Can't believe that all the track from esplen to
> Weirton Jct is gone, although I guess it was torn
> out some time ago.
> Did any trains run over it other than amtrak post
> 1971? Overall, it was slow, hilly and curvy.
>
>
>
> RuleG Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> In Pittsburgh, the National Limited used two
> > different routings to and from the Amtrak
> Station.
> > One of the routings used the Panhandle Bridge
> and
> > tunnel along the edge of Downtown Pittsburgh,
> both
> > of which are now used for light rail transit.
> >
> > Another portion of the National Limited's
> > Pittsburgh route from Carnegie to Esplen is now
> a
> > busway.
> >
> > Between Carnegie and Steubenville, Ohio the
> > National Limited route is now the Panhandle
> Trail.
> > Much of the trail has been built, but some
> > segments are yet to be developed.

There is a short section through Scully Yard and out to a customer just west of Carnegie that is still intact. The line saw progressive downgrades throughout the 80s, especially when Conrail moved through trains to from Columbus and points west off the Panhandle in its entirety in favor of the route via Crestline and Alliance. This was an effort to consolidate traffic on particular lines to gain density, and also used a route that had easier access to Conway Yard. Somewhere in that time period it was single tracked and lost its signals. The last Conrail train I saw on the line before abandonment was a WIWB or something like that...it was a shuttle train that ran coils between Mingo Jct and Allenport Pa on the Mon Line, so the direct route was actually beneficial for this train. But even this train had to wait at Burgettstown for a helper to come over from Miingo and by this time, you could tell the line was on its last legs. I left for college a year later, and when I came back, it was a bike trail.

Back in the 1970's I took 2 trips on the National
Limited going to Kansas City. Portions of the track
in Indiana and Illinois were so bad they had speed
restrictions that I guess were 15-20 MPH! I think
that if I had gotten out. Walking at a brisk pace
I would have been faster than that train.

BaltoJoey

PS: I still remember a funny incident on one of the
trips. It was night time. I was looking out the
window. When out in the middle of nowhere. I saw
a great big human moon that was facing the train! LOL

reindeerflame Wrote:
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> There's no need to restore the National Limited,
> as your city-pair (PGH-STL) is adequately served
> by an existing Amtrak service.
>
> Best identify another project to promote!

I guess overnight Pittsburgh - Chicago with connections to St. Louis might be adequate, but another train in the Chicago-Pittsburgh market could help. A daytime train leaving Chicago about noon and its counterpart leaving Pittsburgh about 7:00 am would allow connections to/from Milwaukee, St. Louis, and Quincy, as well as connections with the City of New Orleans. Too bad Amtrak could not do that train on its own without an act of Congress. The length of the run falls under 750 miles.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/14 07:05 by ts1457.

PittsburghMike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pdt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can't believe that all the track from esplen to
> > Weirton Jct is gone, although I guess it was
> torn
> > out some time ago.
> > Did any trains run over it other than amtrak
> post
> > 1971? Overall, it was slow, hilly and curvy.
> >
> >
> >
> > RuleG Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In Pittsburgh, the National Limited used two
> > > different routings to and from the Amtrak
> > Station.
> > > One of the routings used the Panhandle
> Bridge
> > and
> > > tunnel along the edge of Downtown Pittsburgh,
> > both
> > > of which are now used for light rail transit.
>
> > >
> > > Another portion of the National Limited's
> > > Pittsburgh route from Carnegie to Esplen is
> now
> > a
> > > busway.
> > >
> > > Between Carnegie and Steubenville, Ohio the
> > > National Limited route is now the Panhandle
> > Trail.
> > > Much of the trail has been built, but some
> > > segments are yet to be developed.
>
> There is a short section through Scully Yard and
> out to a customer just west of Carnegie that is
> still intact. The line saw progressive downgrades
> throughout the 80s, especially when Conrail moved
> through trains to from Columbus and points west
> off the Panhandle in its entirety in favor of the
> route via Crestline and Alliance. This was an
> effort to consolidate traffic on particular lines
> to gain density, and also used a route that had
> easier access to Conway Yard. Somewhere in that
> time period it was single tracked and lost its
> signals. The last Conrail train I saw on the line
> before abandonment was a WIWB or something like
> that...it was a shuttle train that ran coils
> between Mingo Jct and Allenport Pa on the Mon
> Line, so the direct route was actually beneficial
> for this train. But even this train had to wait at
> Burgettstown for a helper to come over from Miingo
> and by this time, you could tell the line was on
> its last legs. I left for college a year later,
> and when I came back, it was a bike trail.

I was going to mention the route through Scully but you beat me to it....The line west of there to Weirton Jct is a designated high speed corridor for future use.....Amtrak let Conrail rip out a section around Cambridge IN once the National was discontinuted in 1979....A big mistake....I see Dayton to Indy as the biggest obstacle.......

So sad, but the PRR route from Pitts. to St. Louis has been utterly decimated. We must forget about a fast route between these cities.

Would it be possible today to use the still existing PRR route from Pitts. to Columbus--and then the former B&O route from Columbus to StL (via Cincinnati).

I know it would take tons of money to upgrade this route; but is it a physical possibility?

Joe

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So sad, but the PRR route from Pitts. to St. Louis
> has been utterly decimated. We must forget about
> a fast route between these cities.
>
> Would it be possible today to use the still
> existing PRR route from Pitts. to Columbus--and
> then the former B&O route from Columbus to StL
> (via Cincinnati).
>
> I know it would take tons of money to upgrade this
> route; but is it a physical possibility?
>
> Joe

Yes that would be possible....only trick would be in Cincy....from Union Station to get onto the B&O line...the ramp that went down to the where the old Amtrak River Road
station was is gone.....maybe some Cincy guys would know...

floridajoe2001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So sad, but the PRR route from Pitts. to St. Louis
> has been utterly decimated. We must forget about
> a fast route between these cities.
>
> Would it be possible today to use the still
> existing PRR route from Pitts. to Columbus--and
> then the former B&O route from Columbus to StL
> (via Cincinnati).
>
> I know it would take tons of money to upgrade this
> route; but is it a physical possibility?
>

Obstacles: --Pittsburgh-Mingo Jct., as described previously, is now largely a trail. The Panhandle Bridge at the downtown end has been converted for use by rapid transit. It would not be logical to relay this track when the alternative route along the Ohio River should be sufficient.
--There probably isn't much local business to be had between Mingo and Columbus. Again, probably makes more sense to just use the PRR main to Crestline and then go to Columbus. That would cost a lot less to do and serve more population centers. Plus, the PRR main west of Alliance has a fair surplus of capacity now that it's no longer part of a Pittsburgh-Indy/St Louis freight corridor.
--I thought about the B&O option west of Cincinnati before writing my previous post. The problem with it is that it misses Indianapolis and Terre Haute, and really goes through nowhere of consequence. No, Vincennes, Ind., is not a big deal. The plus side of it is that CSX is running very little freight on it -- next to nothing between Vincennes and at least Seymour, Ind. -- so there's room for passenger trains. But who would ride them? Also, it might be rather expensive to restore a connection between Cincinnati Union Terminal and the ex-B&O line west along the river -- the current track layout is not conducive to this move. Of course, that could become a moot point if Cincinnati doesn't step up and preserve C.U.T., leading to Amtrak having to find yet another Cincinnati-area home.