Passenger Trains > Wanted: Viewliner II Baggage Update

Anyone have updated information on the 2 Viewliner II baggage cars that were in Philadelphia recently? Are they still in the area, testing on the NEC? Have they moved to Albany? Any updates?

All four of the first Viewliner II are back at CAF Elmira Heights, NY.

What the problems with these New Cars?? I think time find New Builder for these Cars??

PCCRNSEngr Wrote:
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> All four of the first Viewliner II are back at CAF
> Elmira Heights, NY.


I thought 5 cars have come out. I thought the sequence has been...

one baggage released, 61000
one each of diner, sleeper and baggage dorm released, 68000, 62500, 69000
Then the baggage went back
Then the diner, sleeper and baggage dorm went back

But I thought on September 9th the original baggage and a new baggage (61000 and 61001) were released and sent to Rensselaer. Did both go back? The 61000 went back a second time?

John

CP4743 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PCCRNSEngr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All four of the first Viewliner II are back at
> CAF
> > Elmira Heights, NY.
>
>
> I thought 5 cars have come out. I thought the
> sequence has been...
>
> one baggage released, 61000
> one each of diner, sleeper and baggage dorm
> released, 68000, 62500, 69000
> Then the baggage went back
> Then the diner, sleeper and baggage dorm went
> back
>
> But I thought on September 9th the original
> baggage and a new baggage (61000 and 61001) were
> released and sent to Rensselaer. Did both go back?
> The 61000 went back a second time?
>
> John

No V-II's in Philly!

railcity Wrote:
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> What the problems with these New Cars?? I think
> time find New Builder for these Cars??

No, you want to wait another five years? Amtrak is probably just finding problems until it finds enough money to pay for the cars.

Now, look back at this RAILPACE editorial...the one the apologists poo-pooed.

---

You think the Viewliners are taking too long? I'm still waiting for my high speed rail service to Albany aboard the RTL-III Turboliners!

http://www.caf.es/en/index.php

http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189

GenePoon Wrote:
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> Now, look back at this RAILPACE editorial...the
> one the apologists poo-pooed.


An editorial from a "news" magazine that would print anything in a photo description without fact checking...

On the flip side, their print quality is quite good.

tmurray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now, look back at this RAILPACE editorial...the
> > one the apologists poo-pooed.
>
>
> An editorial from a "news" magazine that would
> print anything in a photo description without fact
> checking...
>
> On the flip side, their print quality is quite
> good.

Couldn't be more true! Few in the "Real" railroad industry have any respect for that publication.

Joke all you want, but the story points precisely to the issue. Lack of leadership in Amtrak. In this case, lack of knowing that you should have a presence within the project of such a magnitude, and you should mutually check each step of the way.

Now, as a comparison, take a look at how GM handled the Train of Tomorrow. They had staff at Pullman-Standard throughout, they approved everything, from the specifications for the car to the alloy of the steel, to every single material. The route to Altoona to test strength (also specified) was surveyed every foot of the way to ensure the domes would fit and not encounter something embarrassing (as in the first run of the MILW Super Domes). Every meeting had a GM rep there, often from multiple departments/companies. Every aspect was checked multiple times, and the GM forces tore apart a truck to ensure strength metrics matched specifications. Every seam was checked, every fastener was double checked.

Hardly a process you'd expect given Pullman was something of an established builder. Yet, it was new technology, new designs, and they wanted to make sure the cars didn't fall apart and injure people - or "worse", allow bad reputations to follow GM throughout its other enterprises.

Amtrak really needed to "sit" on this, and they dropped the ball. It does not mean that CAF shouldn't have been able to do it all by themselves, but when you have that much money riding (heh) on it, you should be there. Likely someone kept saying "yep, everything checks out, everything is fine, no problems, nothing to worry about. And, given the culture at Amtrak, that was accepted. There may have even been visits. Not enough.

You ask anyone who was in a management position for an airline, railroad, truck company, computer company, military etc. - if their company ever allowed a new product to come off the line without a presence throughout the process - if they say "sure" you can bet that company failed or was taken over at some point soon after. SP sat on the GS-1, PRR & NYC always had people at Pullman when new cars were coming on board for the Broadway or TCL, there is always a project manager from the air force when a plane is being developed/produced, it's just normal business practice.

For those saying there was no money for that....well, I guess there will be time and money to fix it (always the way in poorly led companies).

As background . . .

It is standard practice for a passenger carrier (commuter, intercity, or transit) to have a staff person on-site at the factory. In fact, I seem to recall a posting for a position at Amtrak to do this at CAF.

However, the larger thrust of the Railpace article is on their being stonewalled by Amtrak media - and being left with only comment on-background. They might have a point there, especially since these cars are being built with public funds.

The big issues are that these cars are being built in a new factory by a new builder that is new to the the US. CAF seems to have little experience with working with stainless steel or with intercity passenger rail equipment. They also had no prior experience in building cars to meet US regulatory guidelines.

This brings up two questions. Why was this builder chosen over others that had more experience in this regard? What was the plan to overcome these significant challenges?

61000 and 61001 were in Philly last weekend....

---

Before we all degenerate into an orgy of bashing Amtrak Management; let's try and be sensable=---

If anything is wrong or defective with these baggage cars--it is a Builder Problem. They did it; and they will have to correct it.

Too bad if Mr. Nemeth of Railpace doesn't like the way Amtrak treated him. If he is telling us the truth about this car order being a "Fiasco"--let him call up the builder and ask why--I would love to see the treatment they give him.

Joe

What is the date of the editorial?

> For those saying there was no money for
> that....well, I guess there will be time and money
> to fix it (always the way in poorly led
> companies).

The adage goes: "There's never enough time to get it right the first time, but there's limitless time to fix it."

As President Reagan sagely said vis a vis Gorbachev: Trust -- but verify.

Fritz in HS, AL

"it is a Builder Problem. They did it; and they will have to correct it.

Too bad if Mr. Nemeth of Railpace doesn't like the way Amtrak treated him. If he is telling us the truth about this car order being a "Fiasco"--let him call up the builder and ask why--I would love to see the treatment they give him. "

Well, it depends on the agreement between Amtrak and CAF. Again, as general background information, these contracts often have clauses that prohibit, or severely restrict, the car-builder from releasing information. Any inquiry would be redirected to the ordering party, it if would be responded to at all. The car-builders recognize the potential for defects look for ways to reduce their financial liability for correct them.

If Amtrak is unresponsive, then perhaps the questions should be directed to the federal agency that is responsible for oversight to the funds used to purchase these cars. That agency would be responsible for ensuring that public funds are used in an efficacious manner.

How complicated is it building a baggage car?

Bob

If the cars are still in Philadelphia, are they still being run in tests?