Passenger Trains > Tourist sleeper with kitchen?

A CN timetable from 1962 lists Tourists Sleepers, including  cars with "14 section  kitchen", on the Super Continental and Continental (and maybe others). What purpose did the kitchen serve? 

And gang, I'll say this for what it's worth. I'm not looking for guesses. Thanks!

Forgive my guess, but I think it was so the "tourists" could do their own light cooking instead of going to the diner or lounge. Probably a small galley with sink and stove, maybe a fridge. These were heavyweight cars.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/15 08:37 by CPR_4000.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forgive my guess, but I think it was so the
> "tourists" could do their own light cooking
> instead of going to the diner or lounge. Probably
> a small galley with sink and stove, maybe a
> fridge.

LOL. That's what i imagined, but obviously neither one of us knows! I'll bet someone on TO does.

Self-contained group tours with their own staff?

I can't imagine passengers doing their own cooking.  Can you imagine people waiting in line for access? 

Yes, good point. I'm sure the car had a porter, so probably he did the cooking? CPR had buffet obs cars, where the porter was also the cook.

Found this info on the CN tourist cars, no specific reference to kitchens:

"In late 1951 and most of 1952 the CN undertook a program of modernizing 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars. This included installing larger Thermopane @ windows, new Air Conditioning, new interior paint and carpeting, new mattresses, and new window shades. These modernized cars were completed as follows by CN shops and assigned to the CONTINENTAL between Montreal- Toronto and Vancouver along with 14 Section unmodified cars."

Here's the thread: http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/60105.aspx

Maybe for the porter?

We are talking about a "colonist" car, which was a separate category of sleeping car. Both CP and CN operated such cars, but they were more frequent on the CN.

Until the 1960's, there was still a category of immigrant to Canada who were admitted as farm labourers. These people would get a very inexpensive ocean passage to Canada, and a similar deal from the railways to get them to places needing farm labour.  The kitchen was equipped with pots and pans, fuel and water and many "colonists" would take advantage of this facility and cook up their own food.

I'm not sure bedding was supplied, possibly it was available to rent from the car attendant.

These cars also had coal fired "Baker" heaters which circulated water through radiator pipes, to supplement steam heat.

Colonist cars often operated on branch lines on secondary passenger trains or mixed trains, and would be set out of such trains when the colonists reached their destinations.

"Colonist cars" made ideal troop sleepers and their service life was prolonged by WW2 and the Korean conflict. Whole trains of Colonist Cars were used during and after WW2 to deliver "war brides" to their new homes in Canada.  Women who married Canadian servicemen during the war were given free transport from their homes in Europe to Canada. A late friend described such a journey on a CP train from Montreal to western Canada for "London area brides with infant children" where the kitchen received all sorts of use.
They were usually converted from older standard sleeping cars. Many were later converted to outfit cars for track workers.

Oddly enough there was a first class sleeper capable of travelling secondary lines also, a car which included several types of sleeping accomodation plus a small "buffet" section, actually a twelve seat diner and bar car. The car attendant could provide light snacks and beverage service, and like the Colonist cars, it had self contained coal heating so that it could be handled on secondary trains, and be set out .

Many settlers to the Canadian west have fond memories of colonist cars, and the older Cunarders and CP steamships that bought them to Canada.
 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/15 09:28 by eminence_grise.

These were Point/Pointe series sleepers and some were still on the CN roster in the mid ‘70s but I don’t think they made it to the VIA era. I have a couple of consists where they were in use as coaches on local trains out of Moncton in 1975.

(note the Kitchen at the end of the berths on the right)

---

---

eminence_grise Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are talking about a "colonist" car, which was a
> separate category of sleeping car. Both CP and CN
> operated such cars, but they were more frequent on
> the CN.
>
> Until the 1960's, there was still a category of
> immigrant to Canada who were admitted as farm
> labourers. These people would get a very
> inexpensive ocean passage to Canada, and a similar
> deal from the railways to get them to places
> needing farm labour.  The kitchen was equipped
> with pots and pans, fuel and water and many
> "colonists" would take advantage of this facility
> and cook up their own food.
>
> I'm not sure bedding was supplied, possibly it was
> available to rent from the car attendant.
>
> These cars also had coal fired "Baker" heaters
> which ciculated water through radiator pipes, to
> supplement steam heat.
>
> Colonist cars often operated on branch lines on
> secondary passenger trains or mixed trains, and
> would be set out of such trains when the colonists
> reached their destinations.
>
> "Colonist cars" made ideal troop sleepers and
> their service life was prolonged by WW2 and the
> Korean conflict.
> They were usually converted from older standard
> sleeping cars.
>
> Oddly enough there was a first class sleeper
> capable of travelling secondary lines also, a car
> which included several types of sleeping
> accomodation plus a small "buffet" section,
> actually a twelve seat diner and bar car. The car
> attendant could provide light snacks and beverage
> service, and like the Colonist cars, it had self
> contained coal heating so that it could be handled
> on secondary trains, and be set out .
>
> Many settlers to the Canadian west have fond
> memories of colonist cars, and the older Cunarders
> and CP steamships that bought them to Canada.
>  
Thank you very much. Quite interesting. I still wonder about the inclusion of these cars (I guess with their designation changed to Tourist Sleepers) in the two major transcontinential trains in the early 1960s. Space in a standard section is small enough to begin with, but to also bring along food for cooking seems a real challenge! And then to have any significant number of passengers working in the miniscule kitchen, the issues of safety (boiling water at speed?), sanitation, etc. boggles my mind. In any event, a very enlightening post.

Also thanks to  ghCBNS for the great diagram.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/15 09:25 by stuporchief.

going back in history the caras had 16 sections and still a kitchen.  The restrooms were very small.,

stuporchief Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eminence_grise Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We are talking about a "colonist" car, which was
> a
> > separate category of sleeping car. Both CP and
> CN
> > operated such cars, but they were more frequent
> on
> > the CN.
> >
> > Until the 1960's, there was still a category of
> > immigrant to Canada who were admitted as farm
> > labourers. These people would get a very
> > inexpensive ocean passage to Canada, and a
> similar
> > deal from the railways to get them to places
> > needing farm labour.  The kitchen was equipped
> > with pots and pans, fuel and water and many
> > "colonists" would take advantage of this
> facility
> > and cook up their own food.
> >
> > I'm not sure bedding was supplied, possibly it
> was
> > available to rent from the car attendant.
> >
> > These cars also had coal fired "Baker" heaters
> > which ciculated water through radiator pipes,
> to
> > supplement steam heat.
> >
> > Colonist cars often operated on branch lines on
> > secondary passenger trains or mixed trains, and
> > would be set out of such trains when the
> colonists
> > reached their destinations.
> >
> > "Colonist cars" made ideal troop sleepers and
> > their service life was prolonged by WW2 and the
> > Korean conflict.
> > They were usually converted from older standard
> > sleeping cars.
> >
> > Oddly enough there was a first class sleeper
> > capable of travelling secondary lines also, a
> car
> > which included several types of sleeping
> > accomodation plus a small "buffet" section,
> > actually a twelve seat diner and bar car. The
> car
> > attendant could provide light snacks and
> beverage
> > service, and like the Colonist cars, it had
> self
> > contained coal heating so that it could be
> handled
> > on secondary trains, and be set out .
> >
> > Many settlers to the Canadian west have fond
> > memories of colonist cars, and the older
> Cunarders
> > and CP steamships that bought them to Canada.
> >  
> Thank you very much. Quite interesting. I still
> wonder about the inclusion of these cars (I guess
> with their designation changed to Tourist
> Sleepers) in the two major transcontinential
> trains in the early 1960s. Space in a standard
> section is small enough to begin with, but to also
> bring along food for cooking seems a real
> challenge! And then to have any significant number
> of passengers working in the miniscule kitchen,
> the issues of safety (boiling water at speed?),
> sanitation, etc. boggles my mind. In any event, a
> very enlightening post.
>
> Also thanks to  ghCBNS for the great diagram.

To the best of my knowledge, Colonist cars were never converted to Tourist cars. Two totally separate subjects and cars.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the best of my knowledge, Colonist cars were
> never converted to Tourist cars. Two totally
> separate subjects and cars.

OK thanks. So, PHall, can you provide any insights as to how the kitchens were used in the Tourist Sleepers? Or can you point me to a source of information?

 

stuporchief Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > To the best of my knowledge, Colonist cars were
> > never converted to Tourist cars. Two totally
> > separate subjects and cars.
>
> OK thanks. So, PHall, can you provide any insights
> as to how the kitchens were used in the Tourist
> Sleepers? Or can you point me to a source of
> information?
>
>  

According to the books I've read Tourist Sleepers were 16 Section Pullman Sleepers. I've never seen any reference to a Tourist Sleeper having a kitchen.

I'm no expert, but, in my experience...mostly in reading through old OGs and TTs....those tourist cars with kitchens were a Canadian phenomenon, I've never seen them listed as equipment in US trains.  The one time I rode the CP Canadian, in '62, there were 16 section tourist sleepers up front, but none with kitchens.  The one time I rode CP between Montreal and Vancouver, in '48, I think this train would have had those tourist/kitchen cars, but I cannot recall ever seeing such equipment.  We were in a section in what I think to be a first class sleeper.  I do remember well the open air observation car in the mountains.  Even then, the vegitation grew so close to the right of way that one could reach out and touch the branches, etc....and I am sure we were advised to keep our hands inside the car.  Another big bonus on that trip was a night in a stateroom on the Vancouver - Victoria - Seattle steamer, Princess Marguerite.   CP was a very classy operation in those days.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/15 18:10 by agentatascadero.

An interesting discussion of Colonist cars:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~bgrgroup/colonist_series.html

John White's The American Railroad Passenger Car also has a description of how the Colonist Cars (which were called Emigrant Cars in the USA) evolved into Tourist sleepers.

- Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/15 18:42 by crs1026.

I always remember things a bit late in the game, but....

In looking at some old tt's, I recalled that CN rebranded the Tourist Sleepers as 'Dormette Cars' when it began its go-for-broke passenger revival in the 1960's. One of the drivers was the celebration of Canada's 100th anniversary in 1967. During 1967 passenger rail patronage in Canada rose to levels unseen since WWII. Every last piece of ancient equipment was put into servicce, but the boom ended by the early seventies.

One element of the passenger marketing was to include dining car meals without charge for all sleeping car fares. I have a timetable from 1966 which advertises Dormette accommodation as providing complementary meals. So, in this period, the kitchens were like not used at all. 

- Paul

Post WW2, CP's premier transcon train was the "Dominion", and there was so much passenger business that the train ran in sections. The first two sections were the trains with the diners, different classes of sleepers and observation/lounge cars on the tail end (one originating in Montreal, the other Toronto).

The third section was mostly head end business, mail and express with perhaps a rider coach for deadheading crews. I suspect these following sections were the ones to handle colonist cars. These other sections of the timetable schedule sometimes operated over only part of the route, for instance there was an all mail/express section west of Calgary to Vancouver.

Very likely , the CN "Continental' followed similar practices.