Passenger Trains > 2nd follow up on ABQ Amtrak DEA seizure

Drug Enforcement Agents boarded an Amtrak train in Albuquerque and seized money from sleeping car passenger Joseph Rivers.  Mr Rivers claimed he had raised the money from relatives in Detroit to help him make a video, the DEA described it as proceeds from drug activity. The DEA used a technique called "cold consent" wherein a target is forced to give consent under what the target perceives as duress.  The Wall Street Journal reports Mr Rivers may get his money back within the next few weeks.

The seizure has attracted the interest of Congress, several members have asked the DEA to rein in the program.  The  DEA says the seizure program has been reined in, although others differ.  The focus of the program is on young men of color, a point not missed in many discussions. The Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with the program, says a substantial part of the billion five in annual seized money seized is returned to its owners. Some lawyers, however, argue that a target should not have to prove his innocence, the government should have substantial belief that the money is the result of illegal activity before taking it.

Asset forfeiture laws raise concerns

Guilty until proven innocent.

Ray

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
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> Guilty until proven innocent.
>
> Ray

in some cases i believe in that philosophy

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
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> Ray_Murphy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Guilty until proven innocent.
> >
> > Ray
>
> in some cases i believe in that philosophy.

The difficulty is making the determination.  Many people would hang police officers or railroad employees on the basis of fragmentary evidence, hearsay, lying testimony, or other tainted information. We have rules and procedures specifically to force people in authority to follow the established process, much as they might like to fire the guy's ass off the property.

Shouldn't be any different for the DEA or Border Patrol, etc. They're not superior to the law.

 

I would like to see the 4th amendment defended as rigorously as the 2nd amendment.

Guilty until proven innocent is also a violation of how our judicial system works.

Posted from Android

New Mexico is now the second state to prohibit civil forfietures.

"A law that prevents police from seizing money or assets from people unless they are convicted of a crime is one of the new state laws that went into effect Wednesday."
per Santa Fe New Mexican

Many thanks for the update.

Curious topic for the 4th of July.

F40PHR231 Wrote:
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> New Mexico is now the second state to prohibit
> civil forfietures.
>
> "A law that prevents police from seizing money or
> assets from people unless they are convicted of a
> crime is one of the new state laws that went into
> effect Wednesday."
> per Santa Fe New Mexican

That's correct, although the New Mexico law doesn't affect the federal DEA's practices.

It appears to resrict NM police, deputies etc from supporting any federal seizure action, which could open an interesting kettle of fish

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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 The focus of the program is on young men
> of color, a point not missed in many discussions.

While people of color have indeed been subject to this seizure, I have seen caucasians detained/questioned with $ confiscated, too, so I'd question the statement of the focus of the program and want some figures proving that point.

In most cases,irregardless of other enforcement agencies, the IRS has strict limits on the amount of cash that can be transported across statelines.
I would suggest to anyone who wants to carry large amounts of cash that they obtain a cashier's check, or risk seizure of their money.  

I also have been impressed with the sheer determination of local police and Amtk PD who work hard to confiscate drugs and drug money off our trains.  I have witnessed firsthand some confrontations with hardened criminals that were taken down and arrested, too.  In some cases, substantial force was used to apprehend suspects who resisted arrest.  Bottom line is criminal behavior/activity will not be tolerated on trains, platforms or stations.

It's not a perfect world, and some innocent folks have been subject to search and seizure, too, which is unfortunate.  But, in the majority of cases, a very effective program continues to achieve its goals of safeguarding the trains from drugs and criminal activity.
 

IC_2024 Wrote:
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> In most cases,irregardless of other enforcement
> agencies, the IRS has strict limits on the amount
> of cash that can be transported across
> statelines.

Flat-out incorrect.

Ray

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IC_2024 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In most cases,irregardless of other enforcement
> > agencies, the IRS has strict limits on the
> amount
> > of cash that can be transported across
> > statelines.
>
> Flat-out incorrect.
>
> Ray

I'd agree with you, Ray. And, also note that it's not illegal to transport bucket loads of Benjamins across international borders. You just have to file the proper paperwork.

 

< It's not a perfect world, and some innocent folks have been subject to search and seizure, too, which is unfortunate. >

It is not "unfortunate", it is illegal, without a warrent. The 4th amendment is an inconvenient truth.
We all know the motivation for this: local PD's want to share in DEA seizures and buy military play things that they don't know how to use.
The IRS may be concerned with how much cash you haul out of Casino. It has no rules about how much walking around cash one has elsewhere.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/15 08:50 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> < It's not a perfect world, and some innocent
> folks have been subject to search and seizure,
> too, which is unfortunate. >
>
> It is not "unfortunate", it is illegal, without a
> warrent. The 4th amendment is an inconvenient
> truth.
> We all know the motivation for this: local PD's
> want to share in DEA seizures and buy military
> play things that they don't know how to use.
> The IRS may be concerned with how much cash you
> haul out of Casino. It has no rules about how much
> walking around cash one has elsewhere.
>  

The New Mexico law apparently prohibits the local police departments from participating in the federal seizure revenue sharing program.

Here in NJ, that's become an enormous source of off-budget profit for local police and sheriffs along I-80, I-78 and I-95. Known drug and weapons super highways. You can fund overtime, special classes, super duper command centers etc without local funding or evaluation.