Passenger Trains > Laughing While Black (Wine Train) Catches National Attention

i just saw a preview for tonight's ABC World News and the so called "Laughing While Black" incident will be aired on tonight's news cast ... it showed the wine train and the a couple of women holding their cell phones ...

here's the previous thread on this for those not familiar with the incident ...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3825889,3826995#msg-3826995

googling "laughing while black" brings up a slew of links on the incident ...

Had the noisy lady's been white, I wonder what would have happened. Probably nothing other than them getting tossed off the train. I'm sick and tired of someone having to apologize for trying to stop someone elses bad behaviour. From what I have read, I don't think the Train Manager did anything wrong assuming they were asked politely to quite down before being removed. I've been on the Wine Train twice and it is suppose to be a first class adult experience. If I were in that car, I'm sure I probably would have complained also no matter what their skin color was. That is totally irrelevant.  In fact I did that very thing on Iowa Pacific's train out of Saratoga last month. A family in the first class dome had three kids who were being very loud to the point of screaming. They were white. The crew asked them to quiet down which they did once the train got going and they were well behaved the rest of the trip. It's not that hard. And they were children....not adults who should know better.  

There is more in The Los Angeles Times about it this morning along with a photo of the wine train.  I'm surprised that Rev. Al hasn't chimmed in yet on this one.  I agree with the original poster that this is about bad behavior, not race.  I would not want to pay a lot of money to ride the wine train and have to put up with noise like that.  The  wine train company is bending over backwards to pacify these women with apologies, refunds, offers of another free trip etc. but they refused the offers according to the Times. 

CRS

 

i don't know the facts or what transpired on the Wine train but i will say this ... having fun and laughing is great but it's no longer just laughing and having fun when the behavior interferes and becomes disruptive to everyone else around trying to also have a good time ...

i can attest to this type of behavior being disruptive when i was having a meal by myself in a diner in the wee hours (2am)... there was a group ho had come in after me and i experienced the same type of "laughing while black" behavior ... the diner seats 150-175 persons with a patial divider between me and the group ... i was seated at one end of the diner and the group on the opposite side ... the decibel level got so loud i couldn't even listen to my music through my earbuds ... the diner staff looked like they were bothered by the ruckus and seemed like they wanted to say something to the group but feared doing so ...

i frequent this diner on a regular basis and know the staff ... police from various municipalities also frequent the diner but none were present on this early morning ... after about 15 minutes my blood started to boil about the inconsiderate group i finally said something to the manager that if he doesn't address the situation than i will and he better call 911 right away because i'm sure it's going to get out of hand ...

the manager said he'd speak to the group, which he did, the situation was toned down but the when the group was leaving i got stares and mumblings ... i'm sure an incident was avoided and would've escalated had not customers walked in ... a few minutes later some officers showed up to eat and the group left the parking lot ...

i'm not racist and i worked with black guys my whole career ... some of whom were friends of mine visited my house ... i myself can be a loud individual and have been told by my family and friends that i was being loud at which time i lowered my tone ... i was with a group of black guys having fun and yeah we were loud but we weren't disruptive to anyone ... i have been with my white friends and have been loud but again we weren't disruptive ... having fun and disrupting others are 2 totally different situations

Sometimes laughing and having a good time is encouraged, and sometimes that can change.

About 30 years ago a buddy and I decided to fly from the Bay Area to Seattle on short notice and the only affordable fare we could find was one from Oakland with stops in Las Vegas and Reno.

It was a full on party flight to Las Vegas, and let's just say laughing and carrying on was encouraged. Nearly everybody got off in Las Vegas, and a handful of people rode the next leg to Reno.

There, a plane load of travelers got on for the Seattle leg, and they were in no mood to party. I think they were transferring from other flights.

By this point it was late at night and we got lots of dirty looks and comments from travelers who didn't want to laugh. Since we were sitting in the very last row, we were the last to get off the plane. When we did, a couple of Seattle port police officers met us at the airplane door.

They ran us for warrants and so forth, which gave the other travelers a chance to clear baggage claim before we fetched our belongings.

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My wife and I were eating what should have been a nice quiet breakfast one morning in a Laguna Beach CA restaurant.  One group of about 6-8 people were very loud and disruptive, it seemed they basically yelled instead of talked.  Many Bloody Marys apparently aided this situation. It clearly disturbed all the other patrons. 

As we left, I complemented the group on how thoughtful they were to yell out all their comments so that their deaf friend could hear, even though it clearly bothered all the other patrons.   They all looked quite surprised at this!

I suspect this will "fall on deaf ears."

The naming of the normative as quiet, sedate, etc., for the Wine Train is a part of white privilege. It is having one's own cultural view as the expected, the given, the protected, the enforced. Neither a boisterous party nor a quiet intimate experience is inherently more right than the other, but in a society which is dominated by white people of northern European sensibilities, one is given sanction while the other is escorted off the train.

When those who are white claim to speak of decorum, respect, etc., what they are really speaking about is a desire to reinforce implied privilege.

Yet it seems the operators of the train know that "the times, they are a changin'" .... and if they are not open to diversity more than privilege their days will be numbered.

I got bustituted one time from Chicago to Cincinnati.  It was after midnight when we pulled out of the Gray dog station and there were a bunch of young guys and a few gals all together in the back of the bus.  If I said it was about like a bar room situation, I would only have to add the Honky Tonk band and a bartender to complete the scene.  I was a soldier and I've heard it all but I was embarrassed for my wife at the language.  They were loud and ready to party.  About 10 minutes out of the station the driver told everyone to keep it quiet, use headphones on their electronic equipment, and about a minute later he turned off the lights.  It took about 5 minutes for things to settle down but eventually it did.  

So, if Greyhound has to put someone off, do they give them money to complete their trip on Megabus?

Like it says in the 3rd chapter of Ecclesiastes, "There is a time to party and a time to be quiet."  Well, maybe those aren't the exact word.

There is a time for everything,
    and a season for every activity under the heavens:

I doesn't say anything about race or gender or anything else.  Common courtesy is something that is becoming less common all the time.

John
 

I have a friend who rode Greyhound across the country once and somewhere in Arizona she locked horns with the bus driver. I forget the details of the dispute, but it ended when he stopped to put her off.

When she objected and said he couldn't do that, he replied "Miss, I am the captain of this bus," and I can very well put you off.

She caught the next Greyhound and now has a great bus captain story to tell.

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My noisy passengers story:  I was on the 4:30 am Amtrak departure from St. Louis to Chicago. Two young 20-something year old couples got on. They were ready to party. They were all talk and noise and bustle. They were all set to go to the cafe car to get their first drink. They were all quite disturbed when the conductor told them that car wasn't open and wouldn't be for another 20 minutes. We departed. Before we crossed the Mississippi into Illinois (less than 5 minutes) they were all four very sound asleep. When I detrained at some long forgotten intermediate station several hours up the line, they were all still sleeping soundly.  So much for their party, much to the relief of all the rest of us.

Sometimes, context is everything.....had this group been riding the Reno Fun Train, their sprited behavior may had  gone unnoticed, as that particular train hosts a very rowdy group every trip.  If not the opposite,  the Wine Train and the Fun Train are at opposite ends of the spectrum.  I do agree that the concept of white privilege is a factor in our society.  That being said, appropriate behavior is applicable to most situations, and sometimes that means wildness is the appropriate way to go......other times, not so much.  I heard one report that the group warned the Wine Train staff that they are loud, and would that be OK? It goes on to say that the Wine Train staff went ahead and sold the tickets, aware of the warning.  That I only heard this once, it may not be legit....who knows?  Last time I went wine tasting, there were very few Blacks among the tasters.....mostly white, but many Asias and Hispanics....and crowds were increasingly spirited as the day progressed.  The Wine Train is presented as an equivelent of a high end restaurant.....on wheels.  A land based high end restaurant would not welcome rowdy behavior either.  The more thought I give this, the more complicated it gets.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

I get the impression a lot of commenters haven't been anywhere near an upscale restaurant in a trendy yuppie/millenial/hipster neighborhood in decades. You are lucky if you can hear the person across the table from you.

Ray

I have a "rowdy behavior" story. Although it was not on a train, it's transportation related.

Back in December 1976 I was a naval officer (in Service dress blues) returning from a business trip In Norfolk, VA to my duty station in Hawaii, via Chicago and San Diego.
While waiting in for my flight to San Diego to board it was impossile not to notice a a group of young men who were obnoxiously celebrating something or other in the boarding area. They'd obviously had a lot to drink which only served to amplify their impact on the rest of the passegers waiting to board.

They boarded the before me. The plane was an old 727-200 that was configured with a short forward cabin with maybe three rows of First Class and another two rows of Coach seats behind the curtain. Then there was a Galley that essentially sparated the forward and much larger after Coach section. I was seated directly in front of the galley.

I took off my blouse, folded it, and put it in the overhead storage bin. Then I settled down with a book and planned on having a quiet nightime flight to San Diego. We climed to cruising altitude, leveled off and I purchased a pre-meal glass of red wine. Everything was going according plan ... 

About 10 minutes later, the Senior Flight Attendant  came to me and asked me to help her. Naturally, I wondered how I could help her. She told me that a bunch of young men back the Coach section were being extremely obnoxious and annoying the rest of the full flight's passengers. I asked her if getting them under control wasn't the Captain's responsibility. She said it was, but he'd refused to do anything about i -- what a wooose..She added that shewas aware that I was a naval officer. She'd turned to me because the miscreants were recently inducted Marine recruits on the way to Marine Boot Camp in San Diego so maybe I could influence them. I agrred to give it a go.

I put my blouse on and walked back into the coach section. I won't go into detail about my decorations I had other than to say that I wore gold Submaine Officer Dolphins and three rows of five ribbons on my left side, and a single row of ribbons on the right. There could be no mistaking that I'd been around the block. I approached the group who were all seated on the starboard side. I spoke to the one in the aisle seat in their first row. It went like this:

ME: "I understand that you've all just taken the oath and are heading for Boot Camp in San Diego. Is that correct?"

HIM: Yeah...

ME: "WRONG !!  You're not civilians anymore, You're all subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. For the time being you're subject to MY orders. The correct answer is "Yes, sir." Do you understand?

HIM:  Now obviously no longer feeling quite so bright-eyed and bushy-tailed .. "Yes, sir!"

ME: "All of you!"

THEM:  "Yes sir!"

ME: For the rest of this flight you will all remain silent. 

THEM: "Yes, sir !"

ME: The correct answer to an order in the naval sevice is: " Aye, aye, sir."

THEM: "Aye, aye, sir!"

ME:  "In San Diego there's a Marine NCO who's waiting for you. He's a Drill Instructor.  I can assure you that he's already unhappy at having to pick you up tonight. So, let me tell you this. If you people so much as make a peep for the rest of this flight, I'll ask the Captain to radio ahead to advise that Marine that you're not following orders. He will be extremey unhappy to learn that. Understood? 

THEM: "Yes, Sir!"

I turned to go back to my seat. The passengers applauded. When I got back to my seat the Senior FA said: "First Class is full or we'd move you up, but we're going to treat you like a First Class passenger. Would you like the filet mignon and a nice merlot?

Sure enough, the cowed boots sheepishly deplaned and were greeted by a DI who looked every bit the angry NCO I'd told them would be waiting for them...

Fritz In HSV, AL

P.S. The filet mignon was delicious.  The merlot paired well.


 

This is part and parcel with today's society.
The Wine train is apparently one of the last vestiges  of decorum and respect. "You may be having a loud party, but maybe not everyone in this small space wants to join it."
Been to any decent restaurant early lately? My wife and I like to go right after I get off work, usually at 6. We always enter a nice quiet restaurant. By the time we finish at 7 or 7:30 the place is like a frat party, and this happens at every place we eat.
"If you don't want to yell your conversation, then get out".
Sadly it's become this way everywhere. Obviously these ladies were doing this on the train and the train staff didn't appreciate it. They happened to all be black so, of course, the race card was played.

DH
Tampa

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get the impression a lot of commenters haven't
> been anywhere near an upscale restaurant in a
> trendy yuppie/millenial/hipster neighborhood in
> decades. You are lucky if you can hear the person
> across the table from you.
>
> Ray

i live 5 minutes from the bridges to Philly and we have our share of those establishments on the jersey side too but here's the difference when i go into a trendy bar, club or more likely a sports bar, I KNOW what i'm in for with the decibel of noise and i not only expect it ... i want it as part of the atmosphere BUT when i'm eating by myself at a diner powering down for the night i don't expect nor want a decibel level where i can't even hear what's coming through my earbuds from a group across an empty diner then it's inconsiderate, disruptive and IGNORANT !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 09:41 by Out_Of_Service.

navy5717th Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a "rowdy behavior" story. Although it was
> not on a train, it's transportation related.

...A very entertaining story. Thanks for posting it.

I've read the coverage of the wine-train incident. One thing people are not addressing here is that beyond the mere fact of their being put off the train, the book-club group apparently was near the head end but was walked through the entire train to be taken off. They probably perceived this to be akin to a "perp walk" in front of the other passengers.

I suspect it was done this way because the train stopped to discharge them at a road crossing, and the only way to do that without blocking the road was to stop just after the rear car cleared the road. But that wouldn't change how the book-club group perceived it.

As for the rowdiness issue itself, I think there's a "cultural difference" there that is heard to resolve. I once went to a service at a "black" church and was amazed by the "tell it, preacher" type of comments that emanated from certain parts of the congregation throughout -- something you'd never hear in a "white" church. When you mix people who have different standards for decorum, conflict is almost inevitable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 09:45 by toledopatch.

So, there are those who believe that civility, decency and respect for others are "white privilege".  Wow, this country is in worse shape than I thought.  I suppose that the culture of violence we see in our inner cities should become acceptable everywhere in the name of diversity.

Cole42 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, there are those who believe that civility, decency and respect for others are "white
> privilege".  Wow, this country is in worse shape than I thought.  I suppose that the culture of
> violence we see in our inner cities should become acceptable everywhere in the name of diversity.

Makes one wonder if that poster shares a pulpit with Reverend "G** D*** the United States" Wright, doesn't it?
 This isn't totally an ethnic cultural thing, however; yesterdays WSJ had an article by a African American columnist pointing out that when "gangsta rap" went mainstream there were a lot of black voices who spoke out against it, saying it was coarse and lacked civility.
Unfortunately, that point of view did not carry the argument. This isn't about racial culture, it's about class... or lack thereof. 

One of the first things a new manager is taught about managing employees is that it's not what you think you said, but what the other person heard.

The Wine Train person might have thought they were being friendly etc but that doesn't matter. All that matters is what these ladies heard...

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