Passenger Trains > MLW FP4A/B - Did these provide HEP?

Did these engines provide HEP power like an F40PH? If not, how was train power provided for the cars when these were used? I'm thinking during the time VIA used them. Thanks.

Charles



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 06:06 by nydepot.

nydepot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did these engines provide HEP power like an F40PH?
> If not, how was train power provided for the cars
> when these were used? I'm thinking during the time
> VIA used them. Thanks.
>
> Charles

I believe these locos retained their steam generators right to the end. Not aware of any that received HEP installations. VIA had purchased FP40's for use on it's new HEP fleet. I don't think any of the FP9's received HEP equipment either.

VIA retired the FPA-4 and FPB-4 before HEP conversion of its steam heat fleet began, and the FPAs were not assigned to LRC or Tempo trains.  There does exist a photo of an FPA-4 with a string of Tempo cars but it is a transfer move of deadhead equipment in Toronto, no passengers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 06:38 by GenePoon.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge on passenger train operation. How did the cars get electricity? Each had its own generator underneath?

nydepot Wrote:
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> Sorry for my lack of knowledge on passenger train
> operation. How did the cars get electricity? Each
> had its own generator underneath?

Good question. In the days before HEP, cars had underbody generators which either had pulleys or shaft drive that connected to the wheels and generated power to batteries as long as the train was moving. The batteries supplied the power to the lighting both when moving and at stops.   This is the simple explanation. Cars could be "trainlined" with cables to another car if a generator was not functioning properly and the batteries needed to be charged. Of course, the generator did not only supply power for lights, but also for a/c as well.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 08:50 by ATSF3751.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nydepot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sorry for my lack of knowledge on passenger
> train
> > operation. How did the cars get electricity?
> Each
> > had its own generator underneath?
>
> Good question. In the days before HEP, cars had
> underbody generators which either had pulleys or
> shaft drive that connected to the wheels and
> generated power to batteries as long as the train
> was moving. The power was stored in batteries for
> times when the train stopped. This is the simple
> explanation. Cars could be "trainlined" with
> cables to another car if a generator was not
> functioning properly. Of course, the generator did
> not only supply power for lights, but also for a/c
> as well.

Did steam generators provide any other on-board utilities besides heat, or were they only useful in the winter?

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > nydepot Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Sorry for my lack of knowledge on passenger
> > train
> > > operation. How did the cars get electricity?
> > Each
> > > had its own generator underneath?
> >
> > Good question. In the days before HEP, cars had
> > underbody generators which either had pulleys
> or
> > shaft drive that connected to the wheels and
> > generated power to batteries as long as the
> train
> > was moving. The power was stored in batteries
> for
> > times when the train stopped. This is the
> simple
> > explanation. Cars could be "trainlined" with
> > cables to another car if a generator was not
> > functioning properly. Of course, the generator
> did
> > not only supply power for lights, but also for
> a/c
> > as well.
>
> Did steam generators provide any other on-board
> utilities besides heat, or were they only useful
> in the winter?

Steam was not only use for heat, but also for hot water, and for air conditioning as well. (Steam ejector a/c)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 08:58 by ATSF3751.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steam was not only use for heat, but also for hot
> water, and for air conditioning as well. (Steam
> ejector a/c)

I've long been curious about this. How does "steam ejector air conditioning" work?
 

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Steam was not only use for heat, but also for
> hot
> > water, and for air conditioning as well. (Steam
> > ejector a/c)
>
> I've long been curious about this. How does "steam
> ejector air conditioning" work?
>  
All air condioning work on the same basic principle of evaporation. Some use freon as a liquid. Older refrigeration units used amonia. In the case of steam ejector, of course steam which is pushed through a venturi under high pressure which causes evaporation and thus giving up it's heat to create chilled water that is circulated in a closed system. This system was very efficent and a low user of power compared to electro mechanical type units. It does require that the steam be maintained under high pressure at all times for it to work efficently.

Here is a list of railroads the employed steam ejector a/c
Santa Fe
Southern Pacific
Milwaukee Road
Frisco
MKT

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 09:44 by ATSF3751.

ATSF 3751 wrote:

> Here is a list of railroads the employed steam
> ejector a/c

> Santa Fe
> Southern Pacific
> Milwaukee Road
> Frisco
> MKT

Southern Pacific used it from its introduction in the 1930s but converted their air conditioned passenger cars to Waukesha propane-powered refrigeration in the 1950s.  This allowed SP to remove watering facilities at many stations because without the load of air conditioning, water was not required as often.  Steam ejector air conditioning required not only steam from the locomotive or a steam generator car and electricity from underfloor generators and batteries, but also water, carried in each car.

This was a problem when Amtrak brought ex-ATSF cars to the SP on the Coast Starlight.  The distances between stations having watering facilities was too long for steam ejector air conditioning; the cars would run out of water and the air conditioning would quit working. Amtrak had to install water pipes and hoses at several stations.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/15 15:14 by GenePoon.

Back to the CN/VIA FPA-4's..
I seem to remember that when the Napa Wine Train bought their FPA's from Canada they were first delivered to the SP Sacramento Shops where HEP sets were stuffed into the space where the steam equipment had been (Somewhere I have photos of the work being done). If I recall this was done to every other unit so that there would be only one HEP set for each pair of locomotives- does anyone know if I'm remembering that right?
Anyway, the trivia answer to the original question is that a few post-VIA FPA-4 indeed do provide HEP.
SR

BoilingMan, I believe you are correct.  NVRR's FPA-4s are set up just as you describe.  

They really need only one working engine anyway, for power and HEP. The other could be a cab car and looks good in railfan photos!

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nydepot Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Did these engines provide HEP power like an
> F40PH?
> > If not, how was train power provided for the
> cars
> > when these were used? I'm thinking during the
> time
> > VIA used them. Thanks.
> >
> > Charles
>
> I believe these locos retained their steam
> generators right to the end. Not aware of any that
> received HEP installations. VIA had purchased
> FP40's for use on it's new HEP fleet. I don't
> think any of the FP9's received HEP equipment
> either.

No VIA FPA/FPB 4's received any HEP.  VIA did convert a few rebuilt FP-9A's to HEP.  Not much HEP capacity though.  They were renumbered to the 63XX series.  However not all 63XX FP-9A's were HEP'd.  Hope this did not confue anyone.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Here is a list of railroads the employed steam
> ejector a/c
> Santa Fe
> Southern Pacific
> Milwaukee Road
> Frisco
> MKT


I believe the Southern also had some lightweight cars with Steam Ejector AC.