Passenger Trains > Drag detectors on NEC?

So I'm sitting on AMT 2171, just north/east of Trenton, stopped because the CTEC dispatcher told the train that it had set off a DED.  (Train is currently being inspected).  What surprised me is that I've been listening to the road channel, and there was no announcement from the DED itself - only the call from the dispacther.   I thought dragging equipment detectors were either talk-always or talk-on-defect.  The call from the dispatcher seemed to have been the first the engineer heard of the defect, too, so I don't think I missed the announcement on the radio.

Any ideas?  (And wish me luck getting on my way soon.)

The only part of the NEC where I have ever heard radio-alarm detectors is east of New Haven. There are detectors that have office readout, so that must be what is in use on the rest of the NEC as well as on Metro-North, which also to my knowledge doesn't have radio-alarm detectors.

When the new automated train stop  (please forgive, senior moment can't recall alphabet) goes on line, will computer in cab alert engineer to stop train after DED? 

Thanks.  I had no idea there were detectors that didn't indicate defectes directly to the crew by radio.

Anyway, back on the move now.

Tominde Wrote:
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> When the new automated train stop  (please
> forgive, senior moment can't recall alphabet) goes
> on line, will computer in cab alert engineer to
> stop train after DED? 

it's called PTC Tom ... there shouldn't be a need for PTC to handle a train that's set off the detector ... the engineer should have ears on the detector's no defect/defect audible readout but it would be setup to take over if the engineer didn't acknowledge and respond to a detector that sends a defect alarm ...

on the railroad TT west from NYP the DEDs send an alarm to CETC when activated and the dispatcher contacts the crew to check out their train ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/15 20:25 by Out_Of_Service.

With the volume of traffic on the NEC audible detectors just aren't optimal.  I would hazard this is a message that CTEC has to acknowledge and is unlike a talking detector that can be missed or ignored?

Davis

mab Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks.  I had no idea there were detectors that
> didn't indicate defectes directly to the crew by
> radio.
>
> Anyway, back on the move now.

Dragging Equipment Detectors on the NEC south/west of New Haven don't broadcast over the air. On a four to six track wide line just west of New York the things would never shut up as there always would be a train going over one somewhere within radio range. DED's and HFD's read out on the dispatchers screen's at CETC in New York and Wilmington. I'm not sure if the talking ones on the New England division read out on the dispatchers CETC screen at Boston.

Remembering my CETC daze ......

I'm not sure why talk-on-defect-only detectors wouldn't be a safer option. Defects are rare enough that they would't be disruptive, I'd think. And I'd also think a lot safer to not have to depend on the dispatcher as an interemediary.

Isn't there a special Pennsy era signal for dragging equipment near Aberdeen MD?

there were/are 2 types of DEDs on the corridor ... they both are attached to ties and sit between 2 ties in the tie crib just below the height of thw top of the rail ...

the one type is a metal breakaway detector that sends a signal to CETC when the metal bracket bar is broken ... each one is setup with 5 breakaway bars ... 3 in the gage and one on either side outside the gage ... the metal bracket bars are about 13" end to end, about 2x2" thick and look like elongated Ts with 2 3" stems 3" apart that are attached to the side of a tie with electrical contact wires connected to each stem ... the 2 stems stick up about 3" and bends in opposite directions about 5 inches and bend up around above 2" over the stem so it's forms a loop like a double T for continuity ... each metal bracket bar forms one complete circuit so when the bar breaks the circuit is interrupted and an alert/alarm gets sent to the dispatcher desk of that territory ... measurements are guesstimates from my cloudy brain and not precise numbers ...

the 2nd type is a rocker type with metal plates connected to a round spring bar ... this type is activated when contact is made and the metal plates move in one direction or the other ... they are sensitive enough that if they swing about 2 inches in either direction a signal will be sent to CTEC ... a kick with a foot will send out an alarm to CETC ... these also have 5 plates ... 3 in the gage and one on either side outside the gage ... there are also rockers that are one piece in the gage about 30" with a metal plate on either side outside the gage ...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/15 23:44 by Out_Of_Service.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there were/are 2 types of DEDs on the corridor ...
> they both are attached to ties and sit between 2
> ties in the tie crib just below the height of thw
> top of the rail ...
>
> the one type is a metal breakaway detector that
> sends a signal to CETC when the metal bracket bar
> is broken ... each one is setup with 5 breakaway
> bars ... 3 in the gage and one on either side
> outside the gage ... the metal bracket bars are
> about 13" end to end, about 2x2" thick and look
> like elongated Ts with 2 3" stems 3" apart that
> are attached to the side of a tie with electrical
> contact wires connected to each stem ... the 2
> stems stick up about 3" and bends in opposite
> directions about 5 inches and bend up around above
> 2" over the stem so it's forms a loop like a
> double T for continuity ... each metal bracket bar
> forms one complete circuit so when the bar breaks
> the circuit is interrupted and an alert/alarm gets
> sent to the dispatcher desk of that territory ...
> measurements are guesstimates from my cloudy brain
> and not precise numbers ...
>
> the 2nd type is a rocker type with metal plates
> connected to a round spring bar ... this type is
> activated when contact is made and the metal
> plates move in one direction or the other ... they
> are sensitive enough that if they swing about 2
> inches in either direction a signal will be sent
> to CTEC ... a kick with a foot will send out an
> alarm to CETC ... these also have 5 plates ... 3
> in the gage and one on either side outside the
> gage ... there are also rockers that are one piece
> in the gage about 30" with a metal plate on either
> side outside the gage ...

I'm pretty sure Amtrak has replaced all the old PRR break-a-way DED's on the corridor ..... at least they did on the Baltimore/Philadelphia/Mid-Atlantic division when I was there. Not sure about the New York/Metropolitan division.

As far as the alarms at CETC are concerned ... the DED/HBD alarms would show up at the bottom of the screen as a High Level RED alarm which the dispatcher was required at acknowledge right a way. After a short period of time nothing else would work on the screen except the acknowledge command. In certain locations a DED or HBD would drop the next controlled signal ahead of the train to STOP. I wonder if ACSES, which has many of the features of PTC, will have a DED/HBD feature in it. Since ACSES and PTC both work through the signal system as well as the dispatching system, adding a DED/HBD feature shouldn't be that difficult. The DED/HBD alarms would still readout on the dispatchers screen as a backup for any train operating with a ACSES/PTC failure.

Remembering my CETC daze ......

 

I remember an interesting story from the PC days.  On the former PRR in electrified territory the dragging equipment detectors were known as "D Bars."  A certain crew who was always looking for overtime would lean over the rear platform of the cabin (PRR-eze for caboose) with a pool stick to pick the D Bar.  That would actuate an alarm at the next tower, who would set the signal at stop and instruct the crew to inspect their train (which they took their time doing).  Not sure how long these chananagins went on.
Andy

>
> I'm pretty sure Amtrak has replaced all the old
> PRR break-a-way DED's on the corridor ..... at
> least they did on the
> Baltimore/Philadelphia/Mid-Atlantic division when
> I was there. Not sure about the New
> York/Metropolitan division.

I've never seen one except in a black and white film.

>
> As far as the alarms at CETC are concerned ... the
> DED/HBD alarms would show up at the bottom of the
> screen as a High Level RED alarm which the
> dispatcher was required at acknowledge right a
> way. After a short period of time nothing else
> would work on the screen except the acknowledge
> command. In certain locations a DED or HBD would
> drop the next controlled signal ahead of the train
> to STOP. I wonder if ACSES, which has many of the
> features of PTC, will have a DED/HBD feature in
> it. Since ACSES and PTC both work through the
> signal system as well as the dispatching system,
> adding a DED/HBD feature shouldn't be that
> difficult. The DED/HBD alarms would still readout
> on the dispatchers screen as a backup for any
> train operating with a ACSES/PTC failure.
>

Enforcing a defect detector would be a bad idea because what happens if the train is stopped in a location where it is not able to be easily inspected?  From my experiance in Harrisburg Line interlocking towers employing 1948 PRR operating practices, some detectors would drop signals and others would sound an alarm in the tower.  Auto dropping would usually take place where towers were only open part time.  When a tower was manned I believe the operator was suposted to take the signal away.  With radios the trains could just be instructed to stop.