Passenger Trains > Old Amtrak Florida Consists

Since this topic keeps coming up endlessly, here are the consists as published in Passenger Train Journal back in the 70's and 80's.

1978:
Meteor and Champion (15 cars):
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
2 Sleepers (10-6)
Sleeper/Lounge
2 Diners
Lounge
7 Coaches

Silver Star (18 cars):
Mail-Bag
Bag-Dorm
2 Sleepers (10-6)
Sleeper/Lounge
2 Diners
Lounge
10 Coaches


1981:
Silver Meteor (18 cars):
Bag-Mail
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
3 Sleepers (10-6)
Amcafe
Diner
Lounge
9 Coaches

Silver Star (18 cars):
Bag-Mail
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
2 Sleepers (10-6)
Diner
Lounge
10 Coaches


1985:
Silver Meteor (18 cars):
Bag-Mail
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
3 Sleepers (10-6)
Amlounge II
2 Diners
Lounge
8 Amcoach II

Silver Star (14 to 16 cars):
Mail
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
2 Sleepers (10-6)
Amlounge II
Diner
Buffet-Table
Lounge
5 Amcoach II (7 peak)

1990:
Silver Meteor (16 cars):
Bag
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
2 Sleeper (10-6)
Lounge
Diner
Buffet-Table
Amlounge II
7 Amcoach II

Silver Star (17 cars):
Mail
Bag
Bag-Dorm
Slumbercoach
2 Sleeper (10-6)
1 Lounge
1 Diner
1 Buffet-Table
1 Amlounge II
7 Amcoach II

As I said, the main difference to today's consists is a couple fewer coaches and half the non-revenue cars.

Why were the consists cut in the first place? I grew up riding these trains and the service was quite robust year-round until their post-Claytor decline.

Thanks to the post-Claytor presidents of Amtrak, they have literally run off 1000s of passengers.

PhilBell4022 Wrote:
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> Why were the consists cut in the first place?

I think the point he's making is that revenue space has not been reduced (much), but that the reduction in train size comes from having one diner and one or no lounge cars.

You might as well be on a bus with steel wheels these days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/15 21:51 by nsrlink.

I recall a "double diner" on Silver Service, one car dining the other car a kitchen. Best orange roughy dinner ever, anywhere, cooked on rocking and rolling PrestoLogs.

The difference to Miami isn't all that great, however back in the 80's and early 90's, the Meteor/Star essentially ran as 2 trains before they were split in FL. Tampa only gets 1 train in each direction now. Back then it was at least 2, so the revenue cars serving Florida nowadays is still less any way you cut it..

Cheap air travel that has developed in the last 30 years certainly has cut into this market, as it has in so many other places.

A couple of thoughts worthy of consideration.  First, the routes themselves have changed in Florida.  The S Line north of Winter Haven (Auburndale) to Wildwood was abandoned.  Miami to Jacksonville section then went to Lakeland and north to Wildwood.  Then the entire S Line segment was discontinued for passenger service as part of the SunRail agreement.  This likely changed the Florida ridership demand in several ways.

Next the equipment change in 1982 to Amfleet II.  I don't claim to be in yield management but the Amfleet II coaches held 59 passengers vs. the standard 44 seat heritage coach.  So for every 5 44 seat coaches only four 59 seat Amfleet II could be used.  Still, when you look at the 1985 and later eras of 16 car Florida trains in the Amfleet II era was a lot of people and they ran pretty full as I recall.

The West Coast Sections St. Petersburg terminus was cut back to Tampa in 1983 and then terminated entirely with the Silver Star doing the present honors.  That also played with market demand as passengers typically did not like taking the bus across the bay from Tampa.

PhilBell4022 Wrote:
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> Why were the consists cut in the first place? I
> grew up riding these trains and the service was
> quite robust year-round until their post-Claytor
> decline.

The consists were cut first in 1994 to rationalize crew costs, eliminate the Tampa maintenance base and centralize maintenance at Hialeah and eliminate the cutting of one train in Auburndale.

In late 1995, additional cuts were made to retire the heritage fleet coaches, lounges, and sleepers, which had reached the end of their useful life 15 years after their remanufacture into head-end powered cars.  The trains were also then rationalized into a standard shared consist with the Lake Shore Limited and Crescent (the Crescent lost its leg to Montgomery and Mobile at the same time) (this was also when the Broadway Limited was eliminated).  At the same time, the Palmetto was extended to Tampa and Miami via the S-Line, and the cutting of trains in Jacksonville was eliminated.

Yes, service was robust, and ridership was good before the cuts, but the Downs administration appointed by President Clinton felt this was required to control costs in 1994 and 1995.  Yes, ridership and revenue, especially to Tampa, were seriously and adversely affected, and yes Amtrak likely lost more revenue than they saved in costs.

Overall to today, the cuts are primarily in the number of coaches (reduced from 14 to 16 Amfleet II coaches per day to between 7 and 9 per day) and the elimination of the Slumbercoach line of business.  This reduction permitted dropping one baggage car, one diner, and one lounge as well, since each train used to have two.  The reduction in coaches has not seen a corresponding reduction in ridership by half, because ridership has shifted from long distance NEC to Florida to much more short distance business where coach seats are turned over two or three times enroute.  On the other hand, there appears to be more demand for sleeper business today than in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

The long distance coach ridership on the SIlver Service has been mainly lost to driving, discount air travel, and Amtrak's own Auto-Train, as well as to up-marketing travellers to sleeper class.  It is very likely that better service to Tampa (i.e. the Silver Meteor again serving that town) would only require at most a couple of additional coaches per day, and not re-doubling them to 16 again.

In my opinion, there is likely demand to support two no-frills type of extended day/overnight type trains like the current Silver Star or like the Palmetto was before being cut back to Savannah, and two full service overnight trains leaving the northeast in the afternoon/evening and making daylight around Columbia/Charleston, especially if service is restored to the FEC.

As a seasonal resident in South Florida, I would agree with much of this.

One other aspect is many people leave a vehicle in FL and fly back and forth during the year. Even weekly in some cases.

Posted from Android

Two other markets that should be mentioned.  First, when one of the FL trains ran via the S-Line, patronage was fairly heavy at Waldo and Ocala, which serve the Gainesville and Silver Springs markets.  Yes, there is a Thruway bus serving these stations; however, if the bus were bringing many patrons to Jacksonville there would be more coaches on the STAR.  I believe that when the train was discontinued in about 2004 that the patronage from these stations died.
Back in the mid-late '60s, there was a growing market for travel on the two multi-stop overnight trains that served the Carolinas by day - the ACL GULF COAST SPECIAL and PALMLAND.  On holiday weeks it was common to see 5-6 coaches or more representing either train on PRR's Embassy or whatever train #141 was called.  Today's PALMETTO serves some of the GCS market along the A-Line, but there is no service to supplement the STAR along the S-Line.  Raleigh, Southern Pines and Columbia were fairly big traffic generators.
Andy

What they are running now is basically the Miami section with a lounge car, and all the Tampa/St Pete capacity has been lost to points north of JAX as well. Carolinean may have taken up some of the Star's slack north of Raleigh. When the consists were cut to 2 sleepers and 4 coaches, it was also when there was a Silver Palm. The only benefit from its Savannah truncation has been a seasonal 3rd sleeper and 5th coach on the Meteor. Crappy food service on the Star has recently cost its 4th coach, and its 3rd Holiday sleeper given instead to the Meteor.

twropr Wrote:
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> Two other markets that should be mentioned. 
> First, when one of the FL trains ran via the
> S-Line, patronage was fairly heavy at Waldo and
> Ocala, which serve the Gainesville and Silver
> Springs markets.  Yes, there is a Thruway bus
> serving these stations; however, if the bus were
> bringing many patrons to Jacksonville there would
> be more coaches on the STAR.  I believe that when

Combined, Waldo, Ocala, and Wildwood had 44,000 boarding and alightings in 1993, less than single stations like Kissimmee, Winter Haven or West Palm.  44,000 riders is one coach per day.

> the train was discontinued in about 2004 that the
> patronage from these stations died.

There were only 14,000 boardings and alightings at the stops in 2003.

> Back in the mid-late '60s, there was a growing
> market for travel on the two multi-stop overnight
> trains that served the Carolinas by day - the ACL
> GULF COAST SPECIAL and PALMLAND.  On holiday
> weeks it was common to see 5-6 coaches or more
> representing either train on PRR's Embassy or
> whatever train #141 was called.  Today's PALMETTO
> serves some of the GCS market along the A-Line,
> but there is no service to supplement the STAR
> along the S-Line.  Raleigh, Southern Pines and
> Columbia were fairly big traffic generators.

Columbia is the only traffic generator without proper service.  Since it is 10 hours Raleigh to Jacksonville, one of those stations would move into the night to serve Columbia by day.  Just a hunch on my part, but I suspect that Richmond-Columbia overnight and Columbia to Miami by day would produce more traffic year round than a day train from NY to Columbia.  That would mean putting two trains back on the S-Line, as Raleigh-Jacksonville overnight is also a good market.

The Waldo/Ocala/Wildwood situation seemed identical to the Youngstown/Akron/Fostoria/Garrett situation on the Three Rivers. 94% of the patrons west of PGH were headed to Chicago, and patronize had declined from when they were simply thru coaches on the back of the Capitol Ltd serving the Water Level Route.

So the solution in each case was to reroute the train to better intermediate points on the way to their final destination, not simply and thoughtlessly bludgeon the service. 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What they are running now is basically the Miami
> section with a lounge car, and all the Tampa/St
> Pete capacity has been lost to points north of JAX
> as well. Carolinean may have taken up some of the

What really happened is that the old Miami sections didn't serve Orlando and some of them served Jacksonville overnight.  This was pre-1980's when there was still a lot of long distance traffic to the Miami-West Palm area and before the Disneyfication of vacations.  With the relative decline of long distance travel to Miami-West Palm on the train, the slack has been taken up by Orlando traffic that used to fill out the Tampa sections.  The volume of overnight travel may just not be there any more because of cheap airfares to Florida and the additional time to reach southern Florida.  A lot of the Florida traffic now is short distance intrastate travel.  The Orlando schedule works because it fits with the afternoon check-in/morning check-out schedule of the resorts and hotels.  You can leave the previous afternoon/evening out of the northeast and arrive in line with the resort schedule.  Going to Miami, on the other hand, takes the whole day and you miss the perceived vacation time of the first afternoon/evening and last morning to train travel.

> Star's slack north of Raleigh. When the consists
> were cut to 2 sleepers and 4 coaches, it was also
> when there was a Silver Palm. The only benefit
> from its Savannah truncation has been a seasonal
> 3rd sleeper and 5th coach on the Meteor. Crappy

The Meteor normally runs 3 sleepers and 5 coaches except at the lowest travel season in mid-winter.  I suspect its future consist is going to be 4 sleepers and 6 coaches and the Star will be 2 sleepers and 3 coaches and the Palmetto may get extended back to Miami with 1 or 2 sleepers and 3 coaches running Savannah-Tampa overnight, and the Meteor's diner will run via Orlando and Tampa.  This would let Amtrak split the Meteor 2 sleepers/3 coaches in each direction at Jacksonville and run a section down the FEC in the future, and allow Amtrak to rotate in consist scheduling in Hialeah the Star, Palmetto and either part of the Meteor.

> food service on the Star has recently cost its 4th
> coach, and its 3rd Holiday sleeper given instead
> to the Meteor.

Are you sure this is the reason?  Or is there more money to be made selling the extra space on the Meteor than on the Star?

 

>> food service on the Star has recently cost its 4th
>> coach, and its 3rd Holiday sleeper given instead to the Meteor.

> Are you sure this is the reason?  Or is there more money to be made selling the extra space on the Meteor than on the Star?

More money to be made given yield management and softer passenger demand on the Star in general due to terrible food service, even softer had they simply left it with the diner.
Boston section and Cardinal passengers are treated better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/15 09:28 by joemvcnj.

abyler, you've made some very good points and when the conditions change, they change. 

However, the bigger question shouldn't be how to get the trains to look like they used to, but is there a way we can use the trains to drive the market and not the other way around? After all, as you mention, the resorts are dictating that but to what extent have the rails become meshed with the resort and travel industry? In fact, even the airlines seem to be more of a conduit to the vacation and not a player, so it's a worthwhile question why this is the leading business arragement.

I'm also not sure why the Heritage cars had to go when they did. I saw your point about the 'useful lives,' but I wonder if many of the capital decisions during the 1980s and 1990s might have been better approached. After all, what would have prevented expanding the fleet and seeking more revenue for a period when it was easier to make the case to buy more Viewliners? 

Of course, hindsight is 20/20 and that's why we have these discussions on the Internet and not in the Boardroom.

Ah how soon we forget how mercilessly the Viewliner program funding was slashed leading to only 50 Viewliners being produced. it was not something Amtrak did. It was foisted on them by you know who's sitting you know where. It is ismply a misrecollection of history if one thinks there was any time when more money was easy to come by either to buy more Viewliners or to refurbish some number of Heritage Sleepers.

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ah how soon we forget how mercilessly the
> Viewliner program funding was slashed leading to
> only 50 Viewliners being produced. it was not
> something Amtrak did. It was foisted on them by
> you know who's sitting you know where. It is

Yes, the Democrat controlled Congress of 1993/1994 and the Clinton Administration in the 1994/1995 budgets.

> ismply a misrecollection of history if one thinks
> there was any time when more money was easy to
> come by either to buy more Viewliners or to

Yeah, right, because its not as though Amtrak was given $2.3 billion in capitol in the 1997 TRA tax bill by the Republican controlled Congress just after Viewliner production had ended.  Oh, wait, that did happen.

Where was that money spent again?  Not on Viewliners.

> refurbish some number of Heritage Sleepers.

That would have been a real waste of money.  It could have made sense to refurbish and rebuild some newer cars like the 1964 Santa Fe bilevels into Slepers, Coaches, and Lounges, but most of the Heritage fleet was way past prime time by then.