Passenger Trains > Any private RR that should try to restart passenger service

Just for a hypothetical question, which private RR could be in position to restart passenger service AND make money on it?

Florida East Coast.

Cheers,
Nick

http://gobrightline.com/

Also, I think most expect Fortress (the FEC's parent company) to not cover operating expenses. The big bucks will likely come from the real estate that they own around the stations. 

So what's stopping the government from breaking up a real estate/rail conglomerate,
like they did with the electric/holding companies and the streetcar lines?
Also, at a certain point of development saturation, why would the real estate end want
to keep shoring up the rail passenger operation?  They would just spin it off, probably to
a government entity, when it becomes a financial burden.  This is a grand experiment indeed!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/16 23:47 by mp51w.

That lack of interest.

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what's stopping the government from breaking up
> a real estate/rail conglomerate,
> like they did with the electric utilities and the
> streetcar lines?
> Also, at a certain point of development
> saturation, why would the real estate end want
> to keep shoring up the rail passenger operation? 
> They would just spin it off, probably to
> a government entity, when it becomes a financial
> burden.  This is a grand experiment indeed!

A joint passenger and roadrailer service Chicago - Miami - Chicago
Principally a CSX and FEC operation, with one sector BHM-ATL on NS.

Northbound Pax and Roadrailer 53ft. reefers: moving fruit/veggie/iced seafood.
Southbound Pax and Roadrailer 53ft. reefers: re-positioning to Miami, moving FAK (freight all kinds).

Passenger service via a customized Viewliner consist:
Sleepers, coaches, diner, lounge, lounge cafe and baggage.

Major proposed cities served:
Chicago, IL                 (Pax rail connect with Metra - Chicago, and Amtrak - Wisconsin)  Roadrailer onload/offload.
Indianapolis, IN           (Pax bus feeder connect to/from STL/Dayton/Columbus)
Louisville                     (Pax bus feeder connect to/from Cincinnati)
Bowling Green, KY
Nashville, TN
Decatur (Huntsville)
Cullman
Birmingham, AL
Atlanta
Macon
Warner Robins
Waycross GA
Jacksonville
St Augustine
Daytona
Melbourne
Ft Pierce
Stuart
Jupiter
Palm Beach
Ft Lauderdale
Miami, FL   Roadrailer onload/offload.

There would be substantial start up costs. However, the mix of pax in a high-density population area of the country, plus a major portion of operational expenses paid by the Roadrailer business, would make this operation a possibility.  Over time this could be a good business, a community-building investment, and help some folks who dont have rail pax service get around the country.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/16 04:55 by NYC4096.

Just let the Class ones run and manage the trains and subsidize the loss so the base cost of operation of the train is a net zero cost of operation to the railroad. That way only way the railroad makes a profit is from ticket sales and thus the need to provide excellent service to keep passengers onboard and perhaps market other express freight service to add revenue.
The fight to determine what each trains operation cost would be interesting and enough to sink the plan.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/16 06:38 by howeld.

Okay, let's go over this again.

Florida, today, has a permanent population of over 20 million souls, making Florida the third most populous state. About 40% of that population lives along the route of the FEC.

Florida's annual tourism count - both international and domestic - is just a hair over 100 million, the majority of which visit South Florida and Central Florida, the terminal points for All Aboard Florida.

While, yes, real estate development is certainly a huge slice of the profit pie for FEC/Fortress/All Aboard Florida, the local population base and tourism base can easily soak up the available Brightline seats for 16 roundtrips a day between Miami and Orlando.

All Aboard Florida is a return to the traditional passenger train model of passenger trains operating on host/owning railroad infrastructure, paying for the incremental costs of operating the passenger trains on top of the already-in-place costs of maintaining infrastructure for freight train operations.

Those misbegotten souls who believe passenger trains can't make money have been drinking too much of the Amtrak Kool-Aid and have not been paying attention to what is going on all over the world where passenger trains using this identical model are profitable, including in Asia and Europe.
 

NYC4096 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Principally a CSX and FEC operation, with one
> sector BHM-ATL on NS.
>

>
> Major proposed cities served:
> Chicago, IL                 (Pax rail
> connect with Metra - Chicago, and Amtrak -
> Wisconsin)  Roadrailer onload/offload.
> Indianapolis, IN           (Pax bus feeder
> connect to/from STL/Dayton/Columbus)
> Louisville                    
> (Pax bus feeder connect to/from Cincinnati)
> Bowling Green, KY
> Nashville, TN
What is wrong by not using CSX exL&N? To Bham.
> Decatur (Huntsville)
> Cullman
> Birmingham, AL
Why not use CSX?
> Atlanta
> Macon

> Warner Robins
> Waycross GA
How do we get between these two?
What is wrong with CSX Atl-WX?


> Jacksonville
> St Augustine
> Daytona
> Melbourne
> Ft Pierce
> Stuart
> Jupiter
> Palm Beach
> Ft Lauderdale
> Miami, FL   Roadrailer onload/offload.

Uncle Joe

I think you may need to do a bit more in-depth research. The SBB, DB, SNCF, to name a few, are all state owned.
From the rail up, it's easier to make money.  If they're so profitable, explain the complete lack of interest by any carrier - especially those who joyously jettisoned the trains in the first place.

Those who forget history are destined to repeat it.

johnpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those misbegotten souls who believe passenger
> trains can't make money have been drinking too
> much of the Amtrak Kool-Aid and have not been
> paying attention to what is going on all over the
> world where passenger trains using this identical
> model are profitable, including in Asia and
> Europe.
>  

johnpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, let's go over this again.
>
> Florida, today, has a permanent population of over
> 20 million souls, making Florida the third most
> populous state. About 40% of that population lives
> along the route of the FEC.
>
> Florida's annual tourism count - both
> international and domestic - is just a hair over
> 100 million, the majority of which visit South
> Florida and Central Florida, the terminal points
> for All Aboard Florida.
>
> While, yes, real estate development is certainly a
> huge slice of the profit pie for FEC/Fortress/All
> Aboard Florida, the local population base and
> tourism base can easily soak up the available
> Brightline seats for 16 roundtrips a day between
> Miami and Orlando.
>
> All Aboard Florida is a return to the traditional
> passenger train model of passenger trains
> operating on host/owning railroad infrastructure,
> paying for the incremental costs of operating the
> passenger trains on top of the already-in-place
> costs of maintaining infrastructure for freight
> train operations.
>
> Those misbegotten souls who believe passenger
> trains can't make money have been drinking too
> much of the Amtrak Kool-Aid and have not been
> paying attention to what is going on all over the
> world where passenger trains using this identical
> model are profitable, including in Asia and
> Europe.
>  

This is just plain wrong...about the only passenger rail operation in a modernized country that doesn't get gov't subsidies for passenger service is in Japan.  If you look at the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc.  There are massive subsidies.  Its so easy to throw things like "Amtrak Kool-Aid" around on an anti-Amtrak board like this...but, some kernel of truth should be there.  Amtrak isn't very well run and makes lots of dopey decisions, but there is no, zero, nada evidence that any private company could make an acceptable return on investment while bearing all the costs of a large scale passenger train operation.   If this were feasible the existing freight rail companies would be lining up to take over routes and the Congress would be turning it over to them as quickly as they could.

I only suggest you do some real, indepth research. Plenty of evidence out there in company reports, news stories, etc. Everyone in North America has been so brainwashed by Amtrak that it's impossible for passenger trains to make money that they can't see the truth when it is in front of them. Why don't the Class 1s get back into the passenger business? How do you know some Class 1 isn't doing an indepth analysis on that?

Passenger trains of yore made money because they did not bear the full costs of infrastructure, as I said above. The same is true for the companies around the world today, whether they are state-owned, a franchise from a government, or privately owned. It can and will happen again - in our lifetimes.
 

Here's one to work with, that didn't exist: expense of liability.
They aren't.  As stated in the previous post, if they were (and if it made any money at all), the Warren Buffets of the world would be lining up. We would then have passenger railcar manufacturers in country and stations worth visiting. 
It isn't, and we don't. 
A single, loaded, intermodal train makes more, and is worth more, than about six to 10 passenger trains.  Liability is much lower, the contents can't complain if it's an hour or 10 late, or the train loses heat. Top speed is no more than 70 mph, and the crew compliment is lower.

Why did they all stop doing this in the first palce?


johnpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I only suggest you do some real, indepth research.
> Plenty of evidence out there in company reports,
> news stories, etc. Everyone in North America has
> been so brainwashed by Amtrak that it's impossible
> for passenger trains to make money that they can't
> see the truth when it is in front of them. Why
> don't the Class 1s get back into the passenger
> business? How do you know some Class 1 isn't doing
> an indepth analysis on that?
>
> Passenger trains of yore made money because they
> did not bear the full costs of infrastructure, as
> I said above. The same is true for the companies
> around the world today, whether they are
> state-owned, a franchise from a government, or
> privately owned. It can and will happen again - in
> our lifetimes.
>  

CSX and NS's predecessor's got out of  directly running commuter trains even when subsidized by state authorities. They want nothing to do with passenger trains in their management structure. It is not a core business. Same is true with CN and CP in Canada. If they haven't outsourced them in Toronto and Montreal, they soon will.

Amtrak was created as a favor to the host railroads exchange for running a fraction of the trains they once did. Most are "member" railroads.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/16 11:42 by joemvcnj.

They can't because Federal law prohibits them, which is the way they like it and the reason Amtrak was created.  

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

Ummmmm.......Didn't the railroads already try that for about 140 years or so???

Todd

The Amtrak Reform Act of 1997 removed Amtrak's monopoly, so it is no longer prohibitied.

Ed

webmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They can't because Federal law prohibits them,
> which is the way they like it and the reason
> Amtrak was created.  

retcsxcfm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYC4096 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Principally a CSX and FEC operation, with one
> > sector BHM-ATL on NS.
> >
>
> >
> > Major proposed cities served:
> > Chicago, IL                 (Pax rail
> > connect with Metra - Chicago, and Amtrak -
> > Wisconsin)  Roadrailer onload/offload.
> > Indianapolis, IN           (Pax bus
> feeder
> > connect to/from STL/Dayton/Columbus)
> >
> Louisville                    
>
> > (Pax bus feeder connect to/from Cincinnati)
> > Bowling Green, KY
> > Nashville, TN
> What is wrong by not using CSX exL&N? To Bham.
> > Decatur (Huntsville)
> > Cullman
> > Birmingham, AL
> Why not use CSX?
> > Atlanta
> > Macon
>
> > Warner Robins
> > Waycross GA
> How do we get between these two?
> What is wrong with CSX Atl-WX?
>
>
> > Jacksonville
> > St Augustine
> > Daytona
> > Melbourne
> > Ft Pierce
> > Stuart
> > Jupiter
> > Palm Beach
> > Ft Lauderdale
> > Miami, FL   Roadrailer onload/offload.
>
> Uncle Joe
_________________________________
Hi, Uncle Joe:

Thank you, and I agree with your points: There is no reason why an all-CSX routing couldn't be favored from Chicago to/from JAX, then connecting with FEC. In order to present a route case and topic for brainstorming, I used what trackage I could find on the map. (I am not totally familiar with CSX trackage and in some places added NS for example BHM-ATL). My point was to add an idea to the thread that experienced railroaders could take a look and make adjustments as desired.

Frankly, it would be great to see passenger service on this route.  It would be interesting to hear from Amtrak: Would they consider organizing a service on this particular route sector between Chicago and Miami?  The sector has a serious population, with excellent potential that could be a service and revenue "condender" on the Amtrak system, given the proper planning and marketing.  Second, there is a need for CHI-MIA express service that likely wouldn't conflict with the Class 1s.

Tom

Not easy to get from the southbound L&N to the eastbound Southern at Birmingham. A time consuming wye maneuver across busy main lines. Likewise from the westbound Southern to the northbound L&N.

Southern would run Macon-Jacksonville via Valdosta not WX.

CSX has capacity problems B'ham-WX or Atlanta-WX. Forget that. NS would probably feel the same way about B'ham-Atlanta and Atlanta-Macon. Less of an issue south of Macon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/16 16:32 by ctillnc.

Brightline has already saddled itself with huge capital costs associated with brand new engines, coaches, and track.
That has set an extremely high bar for passenger revenue.  I agree, there is a huge tourist market there,
and yes, Florida is a populous state, but I'm still leery.  Certainly they have done their homework on this,
but I just don't see the "intrastate" ridership jumping to rail with the kind of numbers that will make a rate of
return that private enterprise is accustomed to.  A new track and station near the entrance of Walt Disney
World would probably bring the most successful bang for the buck in the Florida market IMHO.