Passenger Trains > Brightline Service - Florida

There is an excellent article about the Brightline project in Floridia is progressing in the November Trans Magazine written and reasearched by Bob Johnston..  I highly recommend reading this article as there is a lot of information regarding the detail the folks there are using to create a most excellent higher speed train service.  What is missing in the article is any mention of connection or intergration with Amtrak.  If this project is sucessful it seems it coud be extendend to both Tampa and Jacksonville.  If that was the case; it seems there could be a drop in Amtrak ridership within the state of Florida thus creating more challenges for Amtrak in sustaning services on this route (within Florida).

Interesting information about passenger car designs being different than current designs and much of the changes are around passenger comforts.  
.  
I also assume if this service is a good and sucessful as it seems it will be this will be stimulus for other such projects across the country.  I have to admit when this service project was announced I posted here that it was probably a pipe dream.  I was wrong!

Highly recommend reading this article and hearing your ideas about things Amtrak can do that would benefit both services.

Will here be through ticketing services offered by both companies?
Will Amtrak allow Brightline to use their reservation system to allow booking?  (today Airlines have joint agreements to use each others reservation systems)
Will there be transfer points between both rail providers?
Will the Sunrail system be extended to the Orlando Airport to connect with Brightline?
Will Amtrak be allowed to use the FEC trackage to deliver the Silver Service from WPB to MIA?

I haven't seen information about the right of way being built from Cocoa Beach to Orlando and would be interested if anyone knows the progress being made with this new build?

Looking for your comments 

 

From time to time, Tri-Rail has had sporadic conversations with FEC about adding commuter service from Jupiter or Tequesta to West Palm and on to Miami.  One 2013plan had a giant "H" as a 2030 or so target.  Crossover around 26th street in WPB.  The Palm Beach Post reports on these discussions every year or two.

(Not to start a flame war, but Amtrak only occasionally figures into these discussions.  I don't know what their long term goals for south Florida might be.)

In October 2012 request-Dec 21, 2012 decision.  The Surface Transportation Board reviewed the "All Abroad Florida" request to be a FRA "Section 3" exemption  "Rapid Transit", because all its passenger were Intrastate and they had no interstate commerce, did not connect with or interline tickets with Amtrak, even though their passenger may connect with boats going out to the Islands from West Palm Beach or Miami.  The STB gave them the approval to be exempt from the FRA as they were not a interstate service.  They will never connect with Amtrak as that would apply the FRA and all the other railroad federal rules against them.  Many Rapid Transit lines have "durable" separation (time duration), which is RR at night and Rapid Transit in the day, but the AAF explained that they have Signal Separations away from the FEC freight trains, and therefore run on an isolated system not connected to the national lines of commerce.  Intrastate passengers are not commerce, and the AAF is not a interstate carrier. It does not come under the FRA. I suggest you read the STB ruling on AAF and see how this system is different from other operations.  This is not the case with California High Speed rail that planned to run over the regular railroad into the north end of the line and the STB refused their Section #3 exemption request.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/16 13:56 by PlyWoody.

My hope is that, once these new Brightline coaches are in service, Amtrak will take a look at them, and decide to place an order with Siemens big enough to replace all the Amfleet cars. (Might also be the answer to the Chicago-St,Louis equipment problem).

​Naturally, we can expect Congress to "Study" such an idea for 10 years.

". . . the AAF explained that they have Signal Separations away from the FEC freight trains, and therefore run on an isolated system not connected to the national lines of commerce." Wow. AAF will run on FEC tracks, which are connected to the "national lines of commerce," as are the FEC freights. Nice job by the lawyers to establish that AAF trains will run is some sort of bubble that "separates" them from FEC.

ronald321 Wrote:
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> My hope is that, once these new Brightline coaches
> are in service, Amtrak will take a look at them,
> and decide to place an order with Siemens big
> enough to replace all the Amfleet cars. (Might
> also be the answer to the Chicago-St,Louis
> equipment problem).
>
> ​Naturally, we can expect Congress to "Study"
> such an idea for 10 years.

Either that or Amtrak will demand so many changes in the model  that any standardization benefit is lost.

In theory, the Amtrak Viewliner was supposed to be a shell which, once designed could accommodate coach, diner, etc configuration. In practice, the CAF can't even build a friggin' baggage car in five years...

 

CPR_4000 Wrote:
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> ". . . the AAF explained that they have Signal
> Separations away from the FEC freight trains, and
> therefore run on an isolated system not connected
> to the national lines of commerce."

> Wow. AAF will
> run on FEC tracks, which are connected to the
> "national lines of commerce," as are the FEC
> freights. Nice job by the lawyers to establish
> that AAF trains will run is some sort of bubble
> that "separates" them from FEC.


I'm 99% sure what Plywoody claimed is inaccurate, as I could not find any document to support it.  Looks to be a copy and paste from a statement in the reader comments section of 2 Trains.com articles by a W. Cook.

I do recall that there were specific reasons for AAF intentionally not connecting to Amtrak, and indeed were designed to avoid certain regulatory requirements.  But IIRC it was related to the level of required reviews, studies, loan qualifications, etc, not exemptions from operational safety oversight.

Unless you like turning greenbacks into nothing, don't buy any AAF bonds.  The only positive here might be to run the Meteor to JAX - ORL on CSX and continue S on Brightline if and when it gets done.  Continue Star on present route.
​Brightline MIA - ORL could be a success, but just like Metro N coming out of Penn  in NY,  you can't run at a high speed between MIA & WPB.  This would cause a lot of accidents to occur, especially at Atlantic Ave crossing in Delray.
 

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CPR_4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ". . . the AAF explained that they have Signal
> > Separations away from the FEC freight trains,
> and
> > therefore run on an isolated system not
> connected
> > to the national lines of commerce."
>
> > Wow. AAF will
> > run on FEC tracks, which are connected to the
> > "national lines of commerce," as are the FEC
> > freights. Nice job by the lawyers to establish
> > that AAF trains will run is some sort of bubble
> > that "separates" them from FEC.
>
>
> I'm 99% sure what Plywoody claimed is inaccurate,
> as I could not find any document to support it. 
> Looks to be a copy and paste from a statement in
> the reader comments section of 2 Trains.com
> articles by a W. Cook.
>
> I do recall that there were specific reasons for
> AAF intentionally not connecting to Amtrak, and
> indeed were designed to avoid certain regulatory
> requirements.  But IIRC it was related to the
> level of required reviews, studies, loan
> qualifications, etc, not exemptions from
> operational safety oversight.

Yes. Plywoody's claim is inaccurate. STB gave them waiver from STB jurisdiction i.e. things like no need for 180 day service termination notice etc. It did not say anything about FRA jurisdiction. Indeed AAF falls under FRA jurisdiction and has to meet all FRA safety and other requirements for operation of a main line pseenger railroad including PTC, buff strength and what not.

Waiver from STB jursidiction implies that there will probably not be any through ticketing to an interstate operation provided by AAF. But of course, no one can stop a third party, a travel agent or a web site from selling multiple separate tickets (one for each separate company) to cover an itinerary involving Amtrak, Airlines and Brightline. OTOH, I have heard that Brightline plans to have a deal with the likes of Uber and/or Lyft for through last mile arrangements from its stations to the actual final origin and destination. That is one will be able to make a reservation for an Uber a brightline train and then another Uber in a single reservation through Brightline.

My completely fearless prediction is that even if Amtrak allowed it Brightline would not use the Amtrak reservation system. A reservation system that is incapable of changing the name of a class of service from Business Class to Diamond Class, as experienced by the Hoosier State is not something that anyone who is trying to create an innovative hospitality service on rail would really wants to deal with.

At present there will be no direct transfer point between the two systems that does not involve a ride on a third system. In the future if AAF starts a service to Jacksonville and Amtrak moves to the Convention Center that might come to pass. but we may be getting ahead of ourselevs. Within a couple of years one will be able to change from Amtrak to TriRail at Hollywood to select trains that will go to Miami Central instead of MIC and connect there with Brightline. Once Sunrail is built to OIA one would be able to change to Sunrail at Orlando Amtrak to the OIA Intermodal Station to connect to Brightline. Until then it is Lynx Bus 11 IIRC to Orlando Amtrak or alternatively Lynx Bus 407 from OIA to Kissimmee Intermodal Station, which is the Amtrak Station too. Incidentally, once Sunrail Phase III to OIA goes on line, it will also connect OIA Intermodal Station to Kissimmee Intermodal Station.

As for Sunrail to OIA, that is on the cards and background work continues towards getting funding for such. but currently it is an yet to be funded project. the OIA Intermodal Station at the new South Terminal under cosntruction at OIA is being built with platform space and track easements for such a connection from th south. It is also being built with additional easements for future use for an LRT/monorail/ whatever to the north in the future to connect to I-Drive via SR528/McCoy Road/Snadlake Road.

As for whether Amtrak gets to use FECR tracks, that is somewhat seperate from AAF. Remember FECR's relationship with AAF is indirect. FECR and FECI are owned by the Fortress Group. AAF is a subsidiary of FECI. There are rumors floating around that FECR is something that the Fortress Group want to sell off to someone else. As far as FECR is concerned AAF will provide it with a significant amount of guaranteed income, since AAF will be paying them premium rates for using their tracks, not the discounted rate that Amtrak pays. I am sure FECR would at least consider striking a deal with anyone that wishes to pay them adequate comensation for hosting their trains.

As for TrRail on FEC, there are at least DEISs floating around for such a thing. Also TriRail has access to the Miami Central station with two dedicated platform tracks being built for them. If money can be found a commuter service along the FECR right of way is more than likely to materialize possibly with one or more crossover points between the FECR and the ex-CSX ROWs. They appear in the various proposals.

As for work on the Cocoa - Orlando segment, no work has been started on the West Palm Beach to Orlando segment. Work is scheduled to beging in mid 2017 as service introduction on the Miami - West Palm Beach section becomes imminent. However, all easements and agreements are in place for the Cocoa to Orlando section.

On a side not about a future station in Brevard County, the County has submitted its list of three possible sites. AAF is in the process of deciding which of the three it wants to pick There is one site that appears to have the inside track, but let us wait until we hear it from them.

As for top speeds, between Miami and West Palm Beach it will be 80mph, West Palm Beach to Cocoa 110mph and Cocoa to Orlando 125mph on grade seperated new trackage along SR528, mostly on the south side of the highway.



 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/16 09:55 by Jishnu.

If a later phase gets Brightline to Tampa, Amtrak would have no need to do the Tampa backtrack. Maybe Amtrak would split both Florida trains into Miami and Tampa sections.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> If a later phase gets Brightline to Tampa, Amtrak
> would have no need to do the Tampa backtrack.
> Maybe Amtrak would split both Florida trains into
> Miami and Tampa sections.

I have been told in no uncertain terms that Amtrak has no plans to reopen the Tampa maintenance base for turning an LD train there, which suggests that the Tampa backtrack will continue in order to get the consist down to Hialeah for turnaround maintenance, and therefore there will be no train splitting either. But of course things can change.

The 110 mph speed has been communicated to the Indian River, St Lucie, Martin county authorities as the maximum.  There will be many slower segments.

I was expecting to see widening of crossings set backs of traffic signals etc underway, but I haven't noticed any so far.  Nor is there any work on the Loxahatchee bridge in Tequesta.

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been told in no uncertain terms that Amtrak
> has no plans to reopen the Tampa maintenance base
> for turning an LD train there, which suggests that
> the Tampa backtrack will continue in order to get
> the consist down to Hialeah for turnaround
> maintenance, and therefore there will be no train
> splitting either. But of course things can change.

Thanks for that information. I guess having a base for only one train does not make sense, but it makes the Silver Star service to Miami slower and maybe more empty in the future.

Any chance Tampa would some day be another Cheyenne, and implement a Borie,WY bus-like solution ?

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Any chance Tampa would some day be another
> Cheyenne, and implement a Borie,WY bus-like
> solution ?

Shhh! Don't give them ideas. Already there is one Borie like solution in place for the Meteor. I think the politics is such that at least one train will continue to serve Tampa. If you look at just the incremental cost of serving Tampa vs. revenues generated it probably is not that bad. There is  quite a bit of inter-Florida traffic, and not necessarily all to Miami or West Palm Beach either. Amtrak could actually better market at least the Orlando - Kissimmee - Tampa segment. AAF is not happening there for at least another ten or so years. It is quite clear that they will do one or two stations in the WPB - Orlando gap first and then they will do Jacksonville, which is a relatively low cost extention. Tampa is going to be expensive and I doubt they will do it without some giovernment aid, and that would potentially open up and opportunity to get Amtrak to use the same trackage from Orlando to Tampa.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> The 110 mph speed has been communicated to the
> Indian River, St Lucie, Martin county authorities
> as the maximum.  There will be many slower
> segments.

Of course, all the maximum speeds I mentioned are maximum speeds in segments where it is allowed. There are many segments where that is not the case. None of this is a deep secret. it is all documented in great detail in the EIS.

> I was expecting to see widening of crossings set
> backs of traffic signals etc underway, but I
> haven't noticed any so far.  Nor is there any
> work on the Loxahatchee bridge in Tequesta.

Work is not scheduled to start until well into 2017, and then again, nothing may be started in Martin, St. Lucie and even Indian River as long the court cases are not settled. So you might have to wait quite a while yet before you see anything happening down there, with the possibility even that initial service will operate through there at reduced speed that is possible with unchanged infrastructure for a while. Construction is likely to begin in Brevard and Orange county around the time that service is inaugurated to WPB or a quarter or two before that. Consequently, I would expect to see things happening north of Sebastian River well before anything happens south of itand north of WPB.

Dear DARK Cloud
I am not in error and you are 99% wrong.  I only had the date wrong.
Read the December 21, 2012 STB Decision Docket No. FD 35680, yourself.
https://www.apta.com/mc/legal/previous/2014/synopsis/Documents/All%20Aboard%20Florida.pdf
It very clearly explained what fits the FRA criteria of Section 3 exemption of Federal Jurisdiction, “Rapid Transit”.  The Brightline also fits a Section 2 FRA Rules for exemption as account “insular”.  In either case working down the FRA Exclusion list, once a match fits, stop, you do not proceed to Section 4 where grade crossings come into question. Grade crossings are not a part of the question process under Rapid Transit exemption from FRA jurisdiction.  Trolleys crossing highways or waterways do not inflict them to being under FRA jurisdiction.   Only the nature of the interstate or intrastate method of handling of commerce is part of the jurisdiction rules per the US. Constitution.

The above posting:  ”It did not say anything about FRA jurisdiction. Indeed AAF falls under FRA jurisdiction and has to meet all FRA safety and other requirements for operation of a main line passenger railroad including PTC, buff strength and what not.” is misleading and not fully correct!”  It does not say anything about the FRA because that is defined in the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution.   The Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) never had jurisdiction over any trolley or Rapid Transit in America for the direct compliance to that Clause of the US Constitution.  If the FRA is taking a difference opinion they are bending the intent of the US Constitution to protect against too much government.
Positive Train Control is part of the Signal System which is the method of separation as explained in the request by AAF and accepted in the Decision FD 35680.  Brightline employees will not be railroad employees under the Railroad Retirement System.

The owner of the 2' gauge WW&F railroad in Maine should read this Surface Board Decision and just place their name WWF in place of AAF, and change the local geographic names and apply for the same Section #3 exemption, and then they can  build beyond their insular hem in of road crossings.  Under Rapid Transit, road crossing are not involved and the nature of motive power is not a function of the law for nature of interstate or intrastate commerce or being a rail carrier without any commerce. Steam on WWF can be just an active exclusion from the FRA as it is on the Mt. Washington Cog RR, which the FRA can not go near, It is insular, Section #2 exemption. Pike Peak Cog also has a non Form #4 Steam locomotive and does not come under FRA.
 

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The 110 mph speed has been communicated to the
> > Indian River, St Lucie, Martin county
> authorities
> > as the maximum.  There will be many slower
> > segments.
>
> Of course, all the maximum speeds I mentioned are
> maximum speeds in segments where it is allowed.
> There are many segments where that is not the
> case. None of this is a deep secret. it is all
> documented in great detail in the EIS.


Thanks, I was just surprised that there hasn't been any work through Stuart, at least  in the section that will be double tracked.  Same thing with the Loxahatchee bridge, which is in Palm Beach county.  That was ID'd as a major component, and  I figured they'd be working on it.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear DARK Cloud
> I am not in error and you are 99% wrong. 

I'm afraid that you are confusing the roles of the Surface Transportation Board (STB) and the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).  The order you cite refers only to the judgement by STB that it has no jurisdiction as AAF is to be a purely intrastate endeavor. 

Gordon

Hi Gordon Mott,
Please read through that Decision as it is only 7 pages including an informative Dissenting opinion. The STB cited that they did not have jurisdiction because the AAF had no commerce, and only intrastate carrier.  That is the exact description that fits the FRA list of exemption of jurisdiction being there Section #3 "Rapid Transit".  The STB agreed with the AAF description, and then you go down the FRA list of reason for Jurisdiction and make a match.  AAF matches Section #2 and or Section #3 of exclusion of jurisdiction of the Federal RR Administration.  It is intrastate and not Federal per decision of STB.