Passenger Trains > UP caught holding 21 for train of empty TOFC cars

UP caught red handed dispatching freight of empties while holding Amtrak. 

Went to the Alton station  to check out 21 this evening.  21 had left Carlinville 25 min late and ETA Alton was still 25 min late when I left the house.  Got to the station, ETA came and went and after waiting for another 20 min, a UP freight consisting of empty TOFC cars came by northbound.  As a result, 21 was held approx 40 min at Godfrey making arrival in Alton 1:06 late. Keep in mind that the freight could have easily held at Wann, which is about 4 mi south of the Alton station and Amtrak was held about 10 mi short of the station.  

This is a flagrant UP violation of their contract to dispatch Amtrak in a timely manner.  that pulled this stunt.  This is the kind of sloppy dispatching that the STB has ordered the railroads to stop.  

Hopefully someone from Amtrak is lurking and can take the UP dispatcher to the wood shed 

At least you aren't making judgement without all of the information..

It is always dangerous to speculate without having all the facts available:
What other trains were on the district at the same time?
Were the "bare tables" desperately needed for loading hot TOFC or COFC at Chicago?
What was the dispatchers plan to handle the trains involved?
What other problems were affecting train movements on the district?
After answering those and other relevant questions, we can then form an opinion as to whether the delay to trains was flagrant.
No dispatcher would ever deliberately delay any train.  That flies in the face of reality.

Norm

Norman Orfall
Helendale, CA
TIOGA PASS, a private railcar



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/16 18:22 by aronco.

Go-Streamliner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> UP caught red handed dispatching freight of
> empties while holding Amtrak. 
>
> Went to the Alton station  to check out 21 this
> evening.  21 had left Carlinville 25 min late and
> ETA Alton was still 25 min late when I left the
> house.  Got to the station, ETA came and went and
> after waiting for another 20 min, a UP freight
> consisting of empty TOFC cars came by northbound.
>  As a result, 21 was held approx 40 min at
> Godfrey making arrival in Alton 1:06 late. Keep in
> mind that the freight could have easily held at
> Wann, which is about 4 mi south of the Alton
> station and Amtrak was held about 10 mi short of
> the station.  
>
> This is a flagrant UP violation of their contract
> to dispatch Amtrak in a timely manner.  that
> pulled this stunt.  This is the kind of sloppy
> dispatching that the STB has ordered the railroads
> to stop.  
>
> Hopefully someone from Amtrak is lurking and can
> take the UP dispatcher to the wood shed 

1.  Do you know Wann was available for a meet?
2.  Was the empty train experiencing locomotive trouble?
3.  Was the empty train short on time?
4.  Did Amtrak ask to be put in the hole for engine trouble? 

Any one of these four scenarios could result in what you described happened. 

Even if the empty cars were "desperately needed" that is not an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train. Even if the train of empty cars was "short on time" that is not an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train. Even if the train of empty cars was "experiencing locomotive trouble" that is not an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train. There is only one excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train: an emergency involving an actual or potential potential threat to human life. Do we know if there was an emergency in this situation? There is no indication of an emergency from the facts stated. Perhaps there was such an emergency but it would appear doubtful. Unless other facts are uncovered I am on Go-Streamliner's side in this one.

John Webb
Trinidad, CA

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if the empty cars were "desperately needed"
> that is not an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak
> train. Even if the train of empty cars was "short
> on time" that is not an excusable reason to delay
> an Amtrak train. Even if the train of empty cars
> was "experiencing locomotive trouble" that is not
> an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train.
> There is only one excusable reason to delay an
> Amtrak train: an emergency involving an actual or
> potential potential threat to human life. Do we
> know if there was an emergency in this situation?
> There is no indication of an emergency from the
> facts stated. Perhaps there was such an emergency
> but it would appear doubtful. Unless other facts
> are uncovered I am on Go-Streamliner's side in
> this one.

Well, unless you have the train movement records and can show that the Dispatcher held the Amtrak train for other traffic.
You don't have a leg to stand on.

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if the train of empty cars was "short
> on time" that is not an excusable reason to delay
> an Amtrak train.

If by giving Amtrak a small delay, it gets that freight crew into the terminal within their hours of service, thereby preventing tying up mainline track with a train that's dead on the law, that *is* an excusable reason to delay Amtrak, avoiding larger delays later.

Posted from Android

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan

Amazing, isn't it, how self-righteous an armchair railroader with an axe to grind can be?

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amazing, isn't it, how self-righteous an armchair
> railroader with an axe to grind can be?

Ironic you would say this. Other than the armchair railroader part, the rest could certainly be said about you and your own tiresome grinding ax against Amtrak. 

ColdRainAndSnow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GenePoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Amazing, isn't it, how self-righteous an
> armchair
> > railroader with an axe to grind can be?
>
> Ironic you would say this. Other than the armchair
> railroader part, the rest could certainly be said
> about you and your own tiresome grinding ax
> against Amtrak. 

And Gene's constant illegal release of classified Amtrak information that he's not even suppose to have access too. Yes, Amtrak PD is now recently aware about Gene.

Posted from iPhone

lots of "company men"  haha.  Im no UP fan. To big to fail.  OTOH, i will say that in the SFO bay area, the UP dispatchers work hard to keep Amtk, ACE and Caltrain from being  stabbed at all.

When I was on the Eagle the other day, the UP had a freight in front of us that caused a red signal.
We sat @ 15 minutes, and then the conductor apoligozed for the delay and mentioned the Union Pacific
railroad about 6 times in 3 sentences.  LOL!

Winnemucca Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if the empty cars were "desperately needed"
> that is not an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak
> train. Even if the train of empty cars was "short
> on time" that is not an excusable reason to delay
> an Amtrak train. Even if the train of empty cars
> was "experiencing locomotive trouble" that is not
> an excusable reason to delay an Amtrak train.
> There is only one excusable reason to delay an
> Amtrak train: an emergency involving an actual or
> potential potential threat to human life. Do we
> know if there was an emergency in this situation?
> There is no indication of an emergency from the
> facts stated. Perhaps there was such an emergency
> but it would appear doubtful. Unless other facts
> are uncovered I am on Go-Streamliner's side in
> this one.

got news for you, a freight train experiencing a locomotive failure is an excuse to delay amtrak.  it is impossible to dispatch trouble like locomotive failures, they just happen.  as a dispatcher, u just do the best u can to minimize delays to other trains and get the wounded train out of the way and/or another motor...............

66

 

Am glad that the popcorn is flowing freely on here and the word you has turned into a one lettered word of U.

PacNWZ12 Wrote:

>
> And Gene's constant illegal release of classified
> Amtrak information that he's not even suppose to
> have access too. Yes, Amtrak PD is now recently
> aware about Gene.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Please provide back-up for the statement that Poon has released "classified" Amtrak information and that his actions are "illegal."

aronco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is always dangerous to speculate without having
> all the facts available:
> What other trains were on the district at the same
> time?
> Were the "bare tables" desperately needed for
> loading hot TOFC or COFC at Chicago?
> What was the dispatchers plan to handle the trains
> involved?
> What other problems were affecting train movements
> on the district?
> After answering those and other relevant
> questions, we can then form an opinion as to
> whether the delay to trains was flagrant.
> No dispatcher would ever deliberately delay any
> train.  That flies in the face of reality.
>
> Norm

Norm, these are all good questions, and play into how a dispatcher handles a territory.

The very last statement is not accurate, however.  I toured a dispatching office several years ago and saw signs posted over each dispatching cubicle saying that the line's 4 intermodal trains on that division "are not to be delayed for any reason, including Amtrak, without permission of the Deputy Director."   I have a photo of it but am not posting it because I don't want to identify the railroad.  

knotch8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> aronco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is always dangerous to speculate without
> having
> > all the facts available:
> > What other trains were on the district at the
> same
> > time?
> > Were the "bare tables" desperately needed for
> > loading hot TOFC or COFC at Chicago?
> > What was the dispatchers plan to handle the
> trains
> > involved?
> > What other problems were affecting train
> movements
> > on the district?
> > After answering those and other relevant
> > questions, we can then form an opinion as to
> > whether the delay to trains was flagrant.
> > No dispatcher would ever deliberately delay any
> > train.  That flies in the face of reality.
> >
> > Norm
>
> Norm, these are all good questions, and play into
> how a dispatcher handles a territory.
>
> The very last statement is not accurate, however.
>  I toured a dispatching office several years ago
> and saw signs posted over each dispatching cubicle
> saying that the line's 4 intermodal trains on that
> division "are not to be delayed for any reason,
> including Amtrak, without permission of the Deputy
> Director."   I have a photo of it but am not
> posting it because I don't want to identify the
> railroad.  

NO, it is accurate. That is not the dispatcher dilberatly delaying a train. That is some one above him ordering him to do so. Big difference.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lots of "company men"  haha.  Im no UP fan. To
> big to fail.  OTOH, i will say that in the SFO
> bay area, the UP dispatchers work hard to keep
> Amtk, ACE and Caltrain from being  stabbed at
> all.

In recent years, UP dispatchers have done a good job, and it's especially true in Northern California, DS 56, 57, 58, 62, and 74 (Technically, there's a 2 in front, like 256, 257, but I prefer the old school two digit numbering). Of course, some dispatchers are better than others. I've overheard a conversation where a Capitol Corridor crew was lamenting the loss of a certain dispatcher to another territory who was darn good. He has since returned.

I do remember about 12 years ago, where UP dispatching was rather dismal for Amtrak #11/#14. Can't blame equipment failure here, because there were much fewer of them back then. I remember sitting in a hole somewhere in southern Oregon, and freight trains were passing us in both directions. Head conductor told me in frustration that this was routine, and it was common for me to catch Amtrak #11 in the Bay Area running 4-6 hours late. And UP did get a slap in the wrist for that, don't forget.

How does that tired saying go? Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it?

But that was more than a decade ago, and things have gotten better. Another tired saying applies: Past history is no indication of future performance?

cash is why the UP treats passengers well in northern cali

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> knotch8 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > aronco Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > It is always dangerous to speculate without
> > having
> > > all the facts available:
> > > What other trains were on the district at the
> > same
> > > time?
> > > Were the "bare tables" desperately needed for
> > > loading hot TOFC or COFC at Chicago?
> > > What was the dispatchers plan to handle the
> > trains
> > > involved?
> > > What other problems were affecting train
> > movements
> > > on the district?
> > > After answering those and other relevant
> > > questions, we can then form an opinion as to
> > > whether the delay to trains was flagrant.
> > > No dispatcher would ever deliberately delay
> any
> > > train.  That flies in the face of reality.
> > >
> > > Norm
> >
> > Norm, these are all good questions, and play
> into
> > how a dispatcher handles a territory.
> >
> > The very last statement is not accurate,
> however.
> >  I toured a dispatching office several years
> ago
> > and saw signs posted over each dispatching
> cubicle
> > saying that the line's 4 intermodal trains on
> that
> > division "are not to be delayed for any reason,
> > including Amtrak, without permission of the
> Deputy
> > Director."   I have a photo of it but am not
> > posting it because I don't want to identify the
> > railroad.  
>
> NO, it is accurate. That is not the dispatcher
> dilberatly delaying a train. That is some one
> above him ordering him to do so. Big difference.


Not to mention that he directly contradicted himself!