Passenger Trains > Amtrak Freight

I have been viewing videos from Green Frog named BNSF Tracks of the Old Santa Fe--Raton Line which shows many runbuys of Amtrak trains with Amtrak express cars and roadrailers.

It is my understanding that Amtrak had to discontinue this service because of agreement with major railroads they would not transport freight--does anyone know if this was true

Dale Smith

Posted from iPhone

IIRC he freight railroads were starting to complain, but there wasn't much they could do.

I recall something about how railroads (pre Amtrak) basically did the same thing.

It wouldn't matter much as the express service didn't live up to its expectations but mail service did until USPS stopped shipping by Amtrak.

That did make some money - I can recall Amtrak back east running trains on the NEC full of USPS cars with one coach on the end like clockwork.

Many of these cars are still in active freight service in the Amtrak colors.

Someone did a good write up on TO many moons ago.

mearsksealand Wrote:
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> I have been viewing videos from Green Frog named
> BNSF Tracks of the Old Santa Fe--Raton Line which
> shows many runbuys of Amtrak trains with Amtrak
> express cars and roadrailers.
>
> It is my understanding that Amtrak had to
> discontinue this service because of agreement with
> major railroads they would not transport
> freight--does anyone know if this was true
>
> Dale Smith

Not exactly true. Discontinued by David Gunn due to serious delays caused to passengers by the need to attach and detach the express cars, particularly at the end stations. The freight railroads were definately against the service, but as long as the freight carried was parcels, magazines and similar there was nothing they could do about it.

MW810 Wrote:
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> That did make some money - I can recall Amtrak
> back east running trains on the NEC full of USPS
> cars with one coach on the end like clockwork.

That would have been 12 and 13 the Fast Mail. 12 had a rider coach that I think was bookable, 13 on the other hand was mail only.
Cheers,
Nick

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3984405

Triple E set them straight on this unless there is a gag order.

NGotwalt Wrote:
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> MW810 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That did make some money - I can recall Amtrak
> > back east running trains on the NEC full of
> USPS
> > cars with one coach on the end like clockwork.
>
> That would have been 12 and 13 the Fast Mail. 12
> had a rider coach that I think was bookable, 13 on
> the other hand was mail only.

12 had more than just a rider coach. It had several passenger cars and provided a useful morning service east of New York Penn to Boston at a time when Amtrak didn't originate any eastbounds at New York.

If I recall correctly, 13 did appear in the public timetable at times south of New York.

And as I read it at the time, Amtrak discontinued the handling of bulk mail when the US Postal Service declined its demand for a long-term contract, which Amtrak said was necessary to justify the cost of replacing the MHC fleet. Some of the MHCs -- the newer ones, if I recall correctly -- had already been sidelined because of issues with their trucks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/16 19:14 by toledopatch.

I don't recall the train numbers, but the ones I saw where in the Springfield line and I'm sure they were added to in New Haven, all MHC and one coach. 0200 south? and 0300 north? like clockwork.

Then again when you own the line you have a bit more control :)

>It wouldn't matter much as the express service didn't live up to its expectations but mail service did until USPS stopped shipping by Amtrak.

The Post Office's discontinuance of open-pouch RPOs on the freight RRs passenger trains in the mid to late 1960s was the last nail in the coffin of RR passenger service. Shortly afterwards, the freight RRs were all for creating Amtrak so they could dump their passenger trains completely. What Amtrak hauled was storage mail, and it went away too.

#13 originated at Springfield for a while. I believe #449 brought Boston cars to Springfield to add to the train there. Later, #13 originated at Boston.

Amtrak hadda 10 year fruit contract with a guy in Philly ... Amtrak tried to cancel the service prematurely and the guy took them to court and won his case forcing Amtrak to fulfill the contract to it's end ... the cars were on the 3 Rivers and the Pennsylvanian and a KP yard crew at 30th St would be responsible from removing rhe cars from the train and running up to Zoo and spotting the loads and pulling the empties to go out on the next trains to Pittsburgh to be forwarded to Chicago ..

When I look at old photos & videos of the Southwest Chief,
I'm kind of blown away at how ugly those trains were with box cars & rail runners.
At the time, we thought it was the answer though.

mp51w Wrote:
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> When I look at old photos & videos of the
> Southwest Chief,
> I'm kind of blown away at how ugly those trains
> were with box cars & rail runners.
> At the time, we thought it was the answer though.

"Old"....?   ;)

Yes the Chief was ugly and long.  I road a train in the late 90,s that had 28 total cars and had to add a fourth engine at La Junta to get over Raton.  Train had four MHC cars, six or seven express box cars plus road railers. Made for some interesting railroading but long delays.  The freight stop at Desoto (KC ) was usually about an hour with the road units making switching moves...bad for passengers.

Anyone have any photos of the switching at Desoto?  It was hard to get since it was mostly at night.

Jeff N
Olathe, KS

Seems like some of those road railers were having trouble at speed staying on the track. I believe speed had to be reduced over this issue.

When the road railers would have problems in middle of Kansas ideally they could pull to crossing and meet a semi wrecker, but there were some interesting situations.  

But this was an attempt to cross subsidize Amtrak, I think it was worth it, provide more jobs and more trains, not sure how many other modes would make a profit with out infrastructure provided by

government  entities.  Since then Amtrak has gone to tiny consists  and at peak times they have nothing but full coaches and high fares, serving not as many folks.   You can see both logic's.  less to

manage and maintain.   To bad the desert wind and pioneer didn't survive to this era.  Damn consultant screwed that all up.  Be interesting if UPS acquired Amtrak, bet they may have omitted the purchase of

NEC.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/16 07:37 by dan.

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The "Three Rivers" was an interesting train in those days. Consisted of MHC's and baggage cars, sleeper, cafe, coaches, box cars and roadrailers. It looked like a freight train! I was on it once and as we were leaving the Pittsburgh station we stopped on the curve to the bridge. I heard on the scanner someone yelling the 41derailed! Turns out that the roadrailers derailed. So they cut them off and we went on to Chicago without them. At Chicago they had to back into the wye to cut off the box cars and roadrailers before going into the station. Once I was watching them add some box cars to the Texas Eagle at Dallas and I asked the conductor what was in the cars. He said cat food.

Posted from Android

mp109 Wrote:
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> The "Three Rivers" was an interesting train in
> those days. Consisted of MHC's and baggage cars,
> sleeper, cafe, coaches, box cars and roadrailers.
> It looked like a freight train! I was on it once
> and as we were leaving the Pittsburgh station we
> stopped on the curve to the bridge. I heard on
> the scanner someone yelling the 41derailed! Turns
> out that the roadrailers derailed. So they cut
> them off and we went on to Chicago without them.
> At Chicago they had to back into the wye to cut
> off the box cars and roadrailers before going into
> the station. Once I was watching them add some box
> cars to the Texas Eagle at Dallas and I asked the
> conductor what was in the cars. He said cat food.

The boxcar traffic may have boosted Amtrak's bottom line but it was definitely irritating for passengers -- even those, like me, who like trains. I specifically remember a Saturday-morning trip to Chicago on the Lake Shore Limited in 1997 with a girlfriend during which we had theater tickets that evening. Well, the train was five hours late, but that didn't stop Amtrak from pulling west onto the Burlington so the damned boxcars could be cut off before we backed into CUS. That added nearly an hour to our delay because by the time they were done with the switching move, we also had to wait on a Dinky to go by. We ended up having to change into our dinner/show clothes in the restrooms at Union Station because we no longer had time to get to our hotel before our pre-show dinner. Why they couldn't have just nosed the train into CUS and pulled the rear-end cars off while passengers were disembarking, I still haven't figured out*, but I can assure you we were not the only people unhappy about how Amtrak handled that train.

*-I don't think Amtrak was making same-day turns at Chicago with the Lake Shore's equipment at the time the way it does now, either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/16 13:57 by toledopatch.

Amtrak could have and probably could still build this business back up based upon 2 restrictions:

Cars are added and removed at end terminals ONLY.
Upon departure, one move to back against the cars to be added at the rear and upon arrival one stop to drop the cars then continue to the terminal. All other movements to be done by switch crews to not interfer with passagner departure or arrivals.

With mail and express:
Pennsylvanian - day train Chicago-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia
Three Rivers - overnight train Chicago-New York
Texas Eagle California Service - Chicago-San Antonio - LA once a week
Kentucky Cardinal - Chicago-Louisville

Without Mail and Express

None of the above

But I don't think it can be revived.  When I was hired in 1996, the UP and SP merged and melted down, then the CSX-NS breakup of Conrail resulted in more service meltdowns, so shippers wanted a reliable expedited service that the freight railroads couldn't provide.  And UPS wanted to buy Amtrak (that was quite an interesting meeting at their offices in Atlanta with Warrington, Carmichael and Bullock) but that's another story....