Passenger Trains > El Paso thinks a 10% grade for their new streetcar is a good idea

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/17 15:12 by darkcloud.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems like a lot of denial going on in the rather
> interesting video:
>
> http://www.kvia.com/news/el-paso/will-el-pasos-str
> eetcars-be-able-to-handle-the-steep-grade-on-stant
> on-street/335192648
>
Sounds like a momentum grade, not a ruling grade. If the car happens to stop in that section, it might not be able to get going again and need to back down. There are numerous places on US standard railroads that are like that.

TAW

"We're using the old vehicles that used to run here and they've got a modern streetcar engine in them and so they go pretty good," Maltby said.

Streetcar engine?

Steepest streetcar line in San Francisco
was 24th St, about 200 ft of just over 15%.
The top of the hill was the end of the line--
maybe they didn't try it in wet weather.

In Oakland and Berkeley, a couple of
12 percent climbs maybe 300 ft long.
And those weren't at the end of the line--
wonder how they managed in the rain.

Railroaders and railroad fans know what an "engine" is. That said . . .

Dictionary.com says . . . 

Engine:

​1. a machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy orpower to produce force and motion.
2. a railroad locomotive.
3. a fire engine,
4. any mechanical contrivance.

Steve



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/17 17:56 by LittleDoc.

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steepest streetcar line in San Francisco
> was 24th St, about 200 ft of just over 15%.
> The top of the hill was the end of the line--
> maybe they didn't try it in wet weather.
>
> In Oakland and Berkeley, a couple of
> 12 percent climbs maybe 300 ft long.
> And those weren't at the end of the line--
> wonder how they managed in the rain.

Years ago, there was a study that worked the other way around. Some engineering consulting company was hired for a study of light rail to West Seattle, which involves a substantial elevation change.There is an area in West Seattle called West Seattle Junction. The engineering company declared that light rail was not possible to West Seattle because the grade leading up to the West Seattle Junction neighborhood was too steep.

I merely grimaced and shook my head upon reading that report. West Seattle Junction was named for the junction of streetcar routes at that location. I guess the report should have said not possible any more! (like so many other things)

TAW

"We're using the old vehicles that used to run here". 

Are they actually having the original El Paso PCC's rebuilt?  By Brookville who is doing the SF Muni rebuilds?

Gordon

And, for the 20th and 21st centuiries, Miss Wiki says:
 Engine: (computing) A software or hardware system responsible for a specific technical task (usually with qualifying word). =smaller[from 20th c.]a graphics engine; a physics engine

Here in Pittsburgh, PA, there are a number of very steep grades. The Fineview streetcar line had a max grade that is usually quoted as 14%, although some accounts say it is steeper. It certainly has many sharp curves and is often wet, or snow and ice-covered. But the older streetcars, and later the PCCs, handled it just fine until streetcar service ended in the 1960s.

Roger Lewis (airbrakegeezer)

No problem just build an incline.  Cincinnati was known for them.  

Did somebody mention Pittsburgh?
 

---

---

I'm not that familiar with streetcar ops, but aren't the cars in San Francisco pulled by cables buried in the street??

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steepest streetcar line in San Francisco
> was 24th St, about 200 ft of just over 15%.
> The top of the hill was the end of the line--
> maybe they didn't try it in wet weather.
>
> In Oakland and Berkeley, a couple of
> 12 percent climbs maybe 300 ft long.
> And those weren't at the end of the line--
> wonder how they managed in the rain.

Setandcentered Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not that familiar with streetcar ops, but
> aren't the cars in San Francisco pulled by cables
> buried in the street??
>

Those are the few remaining cable car lines, which go up really steep hills--well above 15 percent.  They're now, unfortunately, mostly taken over by tourists rather than locals.  The streetcars in the City are of the normal sort, with tracks below and catenary above.

BobB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Setandcentered Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm not that familiar with streetcar ops, but
> > aren't the cars in San Francisco pulled by
> cables
> > buried in the street??
> >
>
> Those are the few remaining cable car lines, which
> go up really steep hills--well above 15 percent.
>  They're now, unfortunately, mostly taken over by
> tourists rather than locals.  The streetcars in
> the City are of the normal sort, with tracks below
> and catenary above.

Why is it "unfortunate" that tourists ride SF transit?  Their money no good?

Catenary?

Judgeing  by my riding PCCs in Kansas City Public Service lines, (1941-1957) the PCCs in ElPaso willl be a "piece of Cake! wag216

Climbing that, with enough HP (and overhead electrical supply) won't be the problem.

Coming downhill and stopping will be.   Remember some PCC's were equipped with magnetic track brakes, next best thing to throwing out an anchor.

It looks like this document is 'pretty close' to the final vehicle spec
http://www.crrma.org/_documents/RFP-15-CRRMA%20-%20El%20Paso%20Streetcar%20Project%20-%20Vehicles%20(04.02.15)%20-%20Addendum%201.pdf

And there's lots of mention in there about the track brake system.  

I think magnetic track brakes are part of every PCC, and most newer LRVs.  They don't depend on trolley power because PCC cars have a 32-volt battery to operate a number of  functions.  I didn't read the whole specification document because it runs over 300 pages, probably the result of consultants, engineers and lawyers all making their contributions.  One report I saw compared the El Paso project to the cars that have been restored for San Francisco.  Apparently the SF Muni cars have been kept as close as possible to original PCC spects, while the EP cars will be considerably updated.  Note that the Muni cars are "all-electrics" from the late 1940s and the EP cars, when they were running, were "air-electric" pre WW II models.  It wil be interesting to see how much "historic fabric" from the original ex-San Diego 1937-vintage cars will remain after the rebuilding is complete.

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I merely grimaced and shook my head upon reading
> that report. West Seattle Junction was named for
> the junction of streetcar routes at that location.
> I guess the report should have said not possible
> any more! (like so many other things)

Add to the list of things we can no longer do:
1) Run trains on time
2) Run trains on time to prior schedules faster than today
3) Turn long distance trains in 7 hours
4) Uncouple/couple DMU/EMU trains mid-route
5) Turn DMU/EMU/Push-Pull trains in 6 minutes at the end of a line
6) Change engines electric to diesel in 7 minutes
7) Set out cars from a long distance passenger train in 15 minutes
8) Move freight cars around curves tighter than 12 degrees 30 minutes
9) Move freight cars over turnouts smaller than a #8
10) Install or maintain a non-standard turnout layout (curved switch, slip switch, diamond, crossover on a curve, curved frog layouts, use "odd" turnout sizes)
11) Restore tracks exactly where they used to be 30+ years ago
12) Build short wheel-base 4-axle switcher engines
13) Build new 4-axle switcher engines for yard/local duties
14) Streamline equipment using metal and glass curved sections
15) Regularly operate AAR Plate C+ freight cars past a high level (car floor level) platform
16) Use mechanical and relay based signal/interlocking equipment
17) Knock on doors, make cold-calls, and market the services of our industry to potential customers
18) Operate freight trains for express business at passenger train speeds and schedules
19) Solicit and operate LCL and short haul freight movements
20) Run any passenger type train or transit type vehicle up a grade over 3.5%
21) ....

"You just don't understand. We can't do things like that anymore."

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>Add to the list of things we can no longer do:
<snip>
> 20) Run any passenger type train or transit type
> vehicle up a grade over 3.5%

I'd agree with most of those except I'm working on one right now that's 3.9% uphill...in a curve..

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> 16) Use mechanical and relay based
> signal/interlocking equipment

...or design electronic interlockings and signal systems with the capabilities of mechanical and relay equipment

>
> "You just don't understand. We can't do things
> like that anymore."

Failure to understand has always been my problem.

TAW