Passenger Trains > Las Vegas Talgo to run in 2000?

Does anyone remember that Amtrak planned to open a Los Angeles-Las Vegas service using special Las Vegas Talgo equipment. It was scheduled to open in 2000. Like that ever happened. (Why did they shut down the old Desert Wind anyway?)

(Sigh)

PSURFLINER

Desert Wind was more than local train, and wasn\'t sustaining itself as long distance route. Vegas Talgo is questionable due to reassignment of equipment to PNW, and not sure U.P. has begun work on Cima Hill.

One story of the Desert Wind (from Chicago to LA via Salt Lake City) cancellation was that the equipment was needed to run daily service on the California Zephyr and was not profitable as too many people took the Southwest Chief to get from Chicago to Los Angeles.

:) Have a nice day. :)

PSURFLINER

Hi,

Why not restore the "Desert Wind" and have
it only run between LA and Las Vegas? It can
use existing track without modifications, can\'t
it? I\'m sure it would at least break even with
all those gamblers going to Vegas. You wouldn\'t
need any sleepers as this run could be about
5 hours long (similar to driving).

Howard Dean

Your idea Howard is the most logical one, and it\'s not the first time someone has made the suggestion. As I understand it, it has to do with Union Pacific\'s negative stance toward any more trains on that route without some kind of improvements to allow for the increased freight traffic that has appeared since the Desert Wind was removed from the lineup. Once again, I\'m absolutely positive that there is a large contingent of experts here that will provide us with a much more detailed explanation than that. But in a nutshell, putting an Amtrak passenger train back on a host freight road once it\'s removed is somewhat like putting a new car cover back into that little pouch they sew into one end of it.

A-I\'s or Horizons would be just fine (understand California Cars are not available, so says the State) for an LAX-LAS service. Just be sure there were not less than one food service car per four coaches staffed with two attendants each and runs out of nothing.

Amtrak Vegas service is certainly not dead. Just a couple of months ago, they ran a special that was reportedly to mimic the planned run. They even stopped at the Rio Hotel for a moment to "test" the stop they plan there. See this link for pics. http://www.trainweb.org/brettrw/amt/amtrak.html

Double tracking of Cima Hill between Kelso and Cima is a big issue for the UP. Mr. Bromley has answered this several times and has eluded to this fact.

DT of the line was to begin July 1, but I inquired of a crew just 2 weeks ago who had just come in from Yermo (over Cima for those who don\'t know) and they said no work had begun nor did they see any equipment being staged.

UP would LOVE to have Cima doubled up, and if they can get Amtrak to pay for it, even better. 2 trains a day will not make or break this line. Heck, I\'ve noticed a sharp drop in traffic since all of the improvements to the Golden State and Sunset routes have gone through. Damn progress...:)

I also believe I remember seeing somewhere that the Talgos are off the table, but that can change again too. Who knows?

The casinos will be on board with this when someone can convince them that they\'ll make money. They certainly subsidize plane fares. When Amtrak can show a constistent ridership, the casnios will join in and provide incentives to So Cals to ride the train.

Amtrak needs to market this train to the So Cals. I have a suggestion, all they need to do is a time lapse video of a helicopter flight over I-15 from Cajon to Vegas on a Friday afternoon, then back on Sunday. If you\'ve not been there done that, then you\'ve never seen traffic like that! 225 miles of pure headache. It is even worse when you are in the middle of BFE!!, and can\'t stop for the next 65 miles and you\'re only going 35 mph. That\'s a big incentive to find alt transportation.

Ok I\'m done...(thank goodness right?)


Brett Wirick
Railroad Crossings
http://www.trainweb.org/brettrw/index.html

If passenger service can not pay its way between LA and Vegas, all is lost.

When we ran the Desert Wind with only one track and sidings, I can only remember a few times when that line was what you could call "jammed". To add one passenger train a day in each direction would of course create complete havoc for Union Pacific and their dispatchers, and throw their entire system into utter chaos. Union Pacific can ill afford to take up precious space with a passenger train that travels at almost twice the speed of many of their freight trains. With all due respect to Mr. Bromley, I think it\'s more a matter of "it\'s our railroad, and we\'ll tell you if and when you can use it and how much it will cost you". That\'s only my opinion based on U.P.\'s visible posturing. The latest trains to Las Vegas were not Amtrak\'s. They were charter junkets paid for by the travel agency using our equipment and crews. If the agency had used the highway, they would have used a charter bus company, same thing different venue. It just seems strange to me that U.P. can\'t run 2 79 mph passenger trains a day without a multi-million dollar, environmentally controversial project. Like I said, just seems a little weird for such a great corporation. Besides that, Amtrak doesn\'t have the money or equipment to run any new trains anywhere right now.

surflinerhogger wrote:

The latest trains to Las Vegas were not
> Amtrak\'s. They were charter junkets paid for by the travel
> agency using our equipment and crews. If the agency had used
> the highway, they would have used a charter bus company, same
> thing different venue.


Yes, those were the Las Vegas Fun Trains with the horizon, dome, etc. As shown in BrettRW\'s website, they did indeed operate a test run for the Las Vegas route using 2 F59s (450 & 463 if I recall) and Surfliner equipment.

Last I heard was it\'s supposedly to start Jan 1st, 2003.

~Chris

FYI

Key Holidays Las Vegas Special
http://www.keyholidays.com/lasvegas.htm

05/07/2002 : photos of the las vegas special through fullerton !
http://www.trainweb.com/cgi-bin/photos/showmvc4.cgi?mvc/year2002/05/2002e07a/

05/10/2002 : photos of the las vegas special arriving back into fullerton.
http://www.trainweb.com/cgi-bin/photos/showmvc4.cgi?mvc/year2002/05/2002e09a/

TrainWeb Las Vegas Talgo Pages:
http://www.trainweb.com/travel/stevelog/1999k04a.html
http://www.360360.com/trains/lasvegastalgo.html

A well run passenger service will almost always pay off in public support of railroads. A poorly run service, on the other hand....

Last I heard was that the train was to start in early 2003. I also heard that it was the environmentally preferred option rather than expanding I15. I would like to see the Blue & White Talgo handle the train, but the FRA Tier 1 crash standards has the trains restricted to the Cascade corridor. California Cars/Surfliners would be nice for the run but both are likely in short supply. The only way out of this one is for Beech Grove to kick it into high gear and get Superliners back on the road. (Thank goodness that appears to be happening!)
-F59PHI450

And then maybe they can bring back the Reno Fun Train.

One of the conditions of the DOT loan guarantee is that Amtrak cannot spend any funds on the planning or operation of any new routes until 9/30/03. This puts the UP double tracking project on hold for now, and thus puts any start of actual service at least a couple of years away. Although DOT can grant exceptions to this prohibition, given the urgent capital needs to fix wrecked equipment it is unlikely Amtrak will even begin to think about the Las Vegas route until late 2003 at the earliest.

Some sources close to the project have told me that the money has already been earmarked for this project, thus not being affected by this new embargo.

I keep hearing people say that the Desert Wind did not do well. In fact it did very well until it was cut to tri-weekly service by the stupidity of the Downs administration. Of course we all know what failures most of the Downs policies where.

Someone also mentioned about how the Southwest Chief was more popular between LA and Chicago. That is showing end point mentality. Few travel from one point to another.

Another fact that needs to be mentioned is that Amtrak did better in most casses in traffic traveling west to Las Vegas not east to Las Vegas. There is too much competition in the the LA to Vegas market.

It\'s great to learn that if and when the service starts there will be a stop at Flamingo Road.

I realize that "ratings change by the minute" at The Meadows, but not all that long ago, Rio, on Flamingo Road but not on the Strip was rated "tops in town". However, their "off strip" location surely has been a detriment to their occupancy factor.

But the "corner" of the "Strip and Flamingo" is home to Bellagio (SW), Caesar\'s (NW), Flamingo (NE) and Bally\'s (SE). I myself prefer the Flamingo, but I\'m an old cudge.

There are NO plans to double track the old pedro route as the route has and is seeing less traffic in favor of the old SP golden state route plus UP is still coming up with cash for double tracking the sunset route to El Paso and up grading many other portions of the old SP.

Cranman24,

There are indeed plans to double track Cima Hill, the portion between Kelso, CA and Cima, CA. This 19 miles section has had an approved environmental study and has had several different start dates. The latest was July 1, given by none other the UPRRPR himself.

UP isn\'t paying for this, Amtrak is, as a condition of restoring service. So other than rounding up the gang to do the work, UP isn\'t worring about this at all. If anything they WANT it to occur, so they get a nasty stretch of track doubled for FREE.

Until Amtrak is ready to restore the service the DT is on hold. If, and when, the service is to ever return, this stretch of track will be doubled, unless UP changes its mind.... naw, aint gonna happen, the line will need to be doubled.

Brett