Passenger Trains > Regarding concrete ties lifespan

Was talking to MOW personnel associated with the TLM about concrete and plastic ties. When I was asked why I was taking pictures, I told them I probably would not see them here again for about 40 years. They pointed to the concrete ties on Tracks 2 and 3 and said they would be back to replace them soon, said they were deteriorating. These ties were manufactured and laid only about 15 years ago.

The questions abound.

1. Were the 15 yr old ties the 'bleeding edge' of technology at the time and suffer from some defects that were subsequently eliminated in later versions?

2. Years ago I had been to the plant in Delaware where they were manufactured. Is this company still in business and will they be responsible for the short lifespan of these ties? Indeed, what was the expected lifespan?

3. Will the existing P811 TLM be able to handle replacing concrete ties as opposed to wooden ties? Has anyone anywhere replaced concrete ties yet?

I also mentioned that other railroads had been experimenting with plastic ties and was told they were not working out as anticipated.

When concrete ties first came into use on Class I railroads in the 1970s, they were expected to last 50 years. Unfortunately, many of the concrete ties installed by Amtrak in the NEC (and also by MTA in Maryland, MBTA in Boston, and LIRR) exhibited an "alkali-aggregate" reaction in which water was absorbed by the ties and then corroded the reinforcing strands, causing the ties to turn to rubble. Most were replaced about 10 years ago, but some of these ties remain in track. All are failing or have failed prematurely. Amtrak and the transit agencies brought a major lawsuit against the concrete tie manufacturers, and won damages.

As to replacement of concrete ties using a P-811, it's been done by Amtrak in replacing the ties mentioned above. Also, essentially all the concrete ties now in track on the NEC were installed by a P-811. The wood ties were reclaimed and sorted, and a number of the good ones were used in rebuilding the Atlantic City line.

As to composite (rubber/plastic) ties, at least some are working out very well. TieTek has sold close to a million to UP, and no TieTek ties in track at Pueblo on the "heavy tonnage loop" have yet failed, and they've been subjected to a half billion gross tons of traffic so far.

I don't recall the particulars, but the State of DE is getting ready to rebuild a section of Rt. 1 that was paved with concrete about 15 years ago. There was an article in the local paper about a certain type of concrete from that timeframe that has been problematic for premature decay.


Randy

There was a bad set of ties made by Lonestar Inc. They used an aggregate that had a chemical reaction with Portland Cement. It took several years to begin crumbling. Maybe these are some of the last of the Lonestar ties. Absent that explanation, or derailmentd or corrosion damage, they should be lasting much longer.

Concrete ties in typical service are expected to last 65 years avg.

Bob

What is the anticipated life of these plastic ties?

For that matter, I'm not even sure what the life of a wood tie should be... anyone want to clue me in?

Thanks,
Mark

MarkW78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For that matter, I'm not even sure what the life
> of a wood tie should be... anyone want to clue me
> in?
>

I remember when I was a kid NJ Transit replaced the northbound track through my town, taking up the old jointed rail and installing new CWR, ties, and ballast. This was in 1988 I believe. The same ties now look pretty bad, and in fact, a few have been replaced piecemeal.

Wood ties fail from rot, and plate cutting and can last from 10 to 50 years depending on climate, traffic and species of wood. The average for wood is 18 years.

Concrete ties fail from impact and spalling or from poor chemistry in the mixture. Impact from derailed wheels will break up a tie, impact from flat spots and overloaded axles will break the insert that holds the rail. Spalling is from age, weather, and ballast condition. Poor chemistry is it's own thing.

Amtrak's original installation of Santa Fe San Vel ties between 1978 and 1981 (about 600,000) are still in track and looking as good as the day they were installed. Other than the ones damaged by impacts they look to last another 30 years or more.

SFSV gave way to Lonestar as the supplier and there were about 300,000 Lonestar ties installed when they started to fail due to the aggregate problem (poor chemistry). The TLM was rigged to exchange concrete for concrete and spent a few seasons replacing the Lonestars for Roclas. Amtrak and Rocla Cement built the concrete tie plant at Bear, DE. Rocla Cement runs it on a long term lease, Amtrak owns the plant.

Some of the early Rocla ties are having problems with the reinforcing rods debonding from the concrete, and look like they might start failing. Poor chemistry again. The process for manufacture was changed.

How long can a wooden tie last? Just pulled a '29 date nail out of a tie on an active, though 1 train a day, line this spring. Did it look good? No, but it was in vermont and nothing there looks real good, or particularly like it may ever be replaced in the future.
Greg