Passenger Trains > Winter hits Amtrak/Chicago

After several weeks of exemplary performance in getting trains out on time, Amtrak Chicago has been hit by its usual nemesis: winter.

Posted to All_Aboard:

> The following trains left Chicago "significantly late" on Saturday
(or Sunday, as the case may have been):
>
> 3(25): 2h21
> 40(25): 2h
> 48(25): 6h
> 50(25): 2h33
> 59(25): 3h39
> 305(25): 2h48
> 352(25): 2h33
> 370(25): 0h29 (though, compared to the above, this isn't
"significant")
>
==================================================

A day later, cold weather hit Amtrak Chicago hard, again.
On 26DEC04, the following initial terminal delays attributable to
cold weather occurred:

Train 48 was delayed 24 min., thawing out equipment.

Train 318 was delayed 2 hr 37 min, replace Coach 34002, freeze
damage, with 34038; then thaw pipes.

Train 347 was delayed 1 hr 27 min, remove Coach 54582, freeze damage,
no replacement

Train 350 was delayed one hour, frozen drains in Cafe car

Train 354 was delayed 1 hr 06 min, thaw out toilets in Coaches 54525
and 54551.

Train 364 was delayed 2 hr 32 min, set out Coach 54554 with burst
pipe.

Train 370 was delayed 22 min, service and thaw out train, was short
one Coach.


In addition, Train 348(26DEC) did not operate, account no equipment
at Quincy: Train 347(25DEC) had been cancelled, frozen equipment.
Both trains bustituted: FIVE buses for Train 348(26).

Train 371(27DEC) short one Coach, 35 overflow passengers handled by
bus Grand Rapids-Chicago, account Train 370(26DEC) departed short one
car.

Train 365(27DEC) oversold by 82 passengers account Train 364(26DEC)
had departed short one Coach, 54554 set out with burst pipe. Two
buses operated East Lansing-Chicago.

Train 7(26DEC) operated with no Chicago-St. Paul "nine car" account
assigned car was frozen, no replacement available. Train was oversold
by 53 passengers, and only one bus was available. It operated
express to St. Paul, standees were reported enroute. Train 8(25DEC)
also operating with no "nine car", oversold by 55 passengers; two
buses to handle passengers from Red Wing and Winona. Expected 18
standees out of St. Paul.

------------------------------------

Isn't it about time that Amtrak declare that the Horizons are freezing up
too much, so they must be packed up and sent to Florida to thaw out...and
in the meantime, and I am sure coincidentally <G>, run between West Palm
Beach and Washington as the annual Palm Beach School Safety Patrol
Specials?

Remember the year when Amtrak unilaterally cancelled two out of three
daily Chicago-Detroit trains because there weren't enough operable cars, while
the Horizons ran on those pleasure junkets to DC?

-GP

Oh well,time to get thawed out around here; by Thursday Dec 30, Temps are expected to be 50dg +.

Enjoy it while we got it!!!!!!!

Why is this still a problem for Amtrak? It hasn't been all that cold except for the last week. It probably isn't fair to compare Amtrak to Metra, but Metra doesn't seem to have anywhere near the same problems despite operating in the same weather conditions.

Comparing Metra's equipment to Amtrak's is like comparing apples to oranges. Other than one toilet on some of Metra's cars, there is nothing else to freeze-up. Amtrak equipment has multiple toilets, sinks, water coolers, etc. The Horizon cars are probably worse than the Amfleet II cars as they are commuter cars which were hastily designed with toilets, sinks and service bars. No one considered winter when they had the plumbing put into them. Consequently, these cars will freeze while on the road with full HEP whenever the temperature drops below about 15 degrees. Heat tape and other "fix-it" programs have never rectified the problems. Of course, when they freeze, the pipes split or burst and then it takes days to locate all of the breaks and repair them. This problem is singularly one of the most frustrating "on-going" situations that the employees have to deal with. It is almost like once winter is over, the power-that-be hope, pray, wish or try to ignore the next winter away. It is unbelievably expensive to repair this damage year after year after year, not to mention the bad publicity and pissed-off passengers.

Silver Sky

Im kinda surprise to see a Superliner Car freeze up. I dont remember hearing about any Superliner Cars with Freeze Problems. Are any other Superliners having Freezing Problems?

Nothing really unique to Amtrak. Santa Fe had their winter problems in Chicago as well.

What I don't understand is why is this still a problem. Did Chicago start having cold and snowy winters just recently?? Or did Amtrak just get its Superliners and Amfleets yesterday??

Maybe next time Amtrak should hire Norway's NSB, Sweden's SJ, Finland's VR, or Russia's RZD in the consulting role... Those railways seem to have their winter act together..........

Usually they run Superliners on the Michigan trains in the winter, I guess they're
less prone to freezing than the Horizons. 370 has been running 3 Horizons, but the
other day it had 4 for one day, then back to 3 (must be the day it was short).
It was also over 2 hours late getting out of Chicago the other day (24th maybe?)
They were running Superliners on 370/371 around Thanksgiving, but switched back to
Horizons for some reason.

Amtrak bought the Horizon cars in the first place because they were cheap and an available design. They're yet another consequence of all the budgetary bulls**t that goes on with Congress. When you do things on the cheap, you get what you pay for. We can debate all we like about whether subsidized passenger train service is appropriate, but the "Just feed it enough to keep it alive" mentality in Washington gives us the worst of both worlds: a subsidized service that doesn't have enough money to do it right.

It's time to outsource Chicago maintenance to METRA and fire a lot of people. Gunn's inability to get a handle on these winter shut downs after 2-1/2 years of cleaning house is unacceptable.

Why doesn't VIA equipment require transporting to south of the Mason Dixon to be thawed out (or is it a balmy 50 degrees in Winnipeg, Montreal, Halifax and Toronto right now ) ???

Why is equipment stored in the yards with no HEP connected ???

Why isn't the water drained ???

joemvcnj,
It is not a case of not draining and blowing cars. As I posted earlier, Amfleet II and Horizon coaches will freeze while on the road below about 15 degrees. Cars are not left off power in the yard but when switching, the cars ARE off power. Nothing can be done about that except to attempt to complete the switch as quickly as possible. Ever tried to work outside with a windchill of minus 20 or 25 degress and do the job quickly? Superliners do not have the freezing problem that the other cars do but they can freeze if left off power for an extended period of time.

Even draining and blowing cars does not guarantee that they will not freeze. Why? Ever pour water out of a glass and set it back down and a short while later the water that adhered to the sides is now accumulated back at the bottom? Combine that capillary effect with pipes that are level or may just slightly tip back towards an elbow and water will accumulate. It does not take much water to freeze, expand and break a pipe. A slight split will pump water when air is introduced to the water raising system.

You may have a job that requires you to work outside all day or maybe you don't. I can tell you that trying to pull a 480v cable out of a receptacle which is packed with snow when it is three degrees above zero (Like the HIGH temperature was in Chicago on Christmas Eve) is no easy task. The human body is not a machine. Workers have to be brought in and warmed up once in awhile. So you say, "Hire more electricians, more trainmen, more carmen, more pipefitters, etc." Amtrak has cut employees in an attempt to meet the financial requirements imposed by this and earlier Administrations.

These problems have existed since these particular cars have been running on Amtrak. Well guess what, W. Graham Claytor (for the God-like figure that most railfans make him out to have been) had the same problems as have every management team. Why was Mr. Claytor not called upon to resign for the same reason? Your logic is flawing when blaming Mr. Gunn. I don't have any reason to defend him but I will defend ANYONE who gets unnecessarily sucker-punched by an outside observer who was not in Chicago last week doing their damnest to maintain some level of service. If you WERE here busting your butt to try to make this tired, worn-out, rundown company work, then I apologize to you.

Silver Sky

< These problems have existed since these particular cars have been running on Amtrak >

Some 700 clones of "these particular cars", some of which have bathrooms, and they are nothing more than a run-on order of NJT Comet-2 cars, run for commuter agencies throughout the northeast and Montreal, and they don't freeze up at anywhere near the epidemic that Amtrak experiences. It is also quite cold and snowy in Boston. So do thousands of other single level northeast commuter cars with bathrooms.

Still left to be unanswered - how does VIA Rail keep its fleet in service when dealing with colder weather than in the States? And let's see - there equipment is about 50 years old? Granted they are having issues with the Renaissance cars, but even these are getting the cold bugs worked out. The above is a rhetorical question to some degree - Via invested in their equipment and outfitted their cars so they could deal with the extreme cold.

Remember when railroads were considered "all weather transportation"?

Well considering most of you guys blaming it on so and so really doesn't come close compared to waht Mr. Poon mentioned on the last part of his report which I remember all too well because when Walker was in charge at Chicago during this time of year, it was a dissaster! The example I can put to this compared to that is 59s consist sat there freezing without someone hooking up the stationary power, and when they finally thawed it out and backed into union he left and only got 12 miles before the crew went dead and there was no patch available, so this recent scenario compared to that is a hell of a lot better because all trains were either over 10 hours late, or canceled!

ProAmtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well considering most of you guys blaming it on so
> and so really doesn't come close compared to waht
> Mr. Poon mentioned on the last part of his report
> which I remember all too well because when Walker
> was in charge at Chicago during this time of year,
> it was a disaster!


So what did they do, they kicked Walker upstairs so he's now in charge of all the Divisions.

I know nothing about the other operators of Bombardier commuter coaches. Do you know that they remain unmodified as they came from the manufacturer? I don't and therefore I will not comment on a subject that I know nothing about. I do know that one, two or three roundtrips on a commuter line do not approximate a roundtrip through the snow belt of northern Indiana and southwesten Michigan such as Trains 351 and 354 do in one day. As for the VIA equipment, once again, I have no experience with their cars. I can only speculate (dangerous to do) that the engineering that Budd did when they were in long-term business to manufacture railroad passenger cars (not personal watercraft, snowmobiles, ATVs, and only build passenger cars as a whim as most companies have done since Budd and P-S exited the business) was complete and sufficient to provide protection under most extreme circumstances. The Amtrak Heritage fleet cars held up well under most weather circumstances also. If VIA engineering and mechanical personnel had their heads screwed on straight, other than replacing asbestos insulation and converting the heat/power source from locomotive generated steam to 480v electric, they left the cars alone. The recent "fly-by-night" manufacturer do/did not have the luxury of building cars as their core business and thus were unable to benefit from years of experience as did Budd, P-S, St. Louis Car, ACF and several railroad operated shops (Milwaukee Road comes to mind). The Horizon cars were relatively cheap and as the old saw goes, "You get what you pay for." With the starvation diet served to Amtrak during its entire existence, cheap equated to good. Personally, I buy the best that I can afford, I take care of it and try to avoid needless expenditures.

Silver Sky

As far as VIA goes, they are now the proud owners of 5 55 year old ex-Amtrak 10-6 sleepers; they run between Winnipeg and Churchill, and I have not heard of any stories of their pipes bursting or missing trips.

The VIA LRC cars seem to make it through the winter all right too and produced by the same manufacturer as the Horizon cars.

Jeebus...how hard is it to cover piping and tankage with **sufficient** insulation, heat trace lines, or immersion heating elements to prevent freezeups? There are probably formulas available to estimate heat loss at different temps per square inch while exposed to so many MPH airflow, through whatever thickness of whatever kind of insulation, and thus how many watts of heat needed to compensate. I'm sure this is old hat for designers of things like refineries and chemical plants that have exposed piping.

Anyone know what is happening tonight in Chgo?

# 21 (28) not departed as of 9PM CT.

Two PV's rearmost to SAS tonight.