International Railroad Discussion > The DPRK (North Korea)

I traveled to the DPRK again for a nine day tour that included a to some areas rarely seen by any foreign visitors. On this day we were headed to the Kumgangsan Hotel at Mt Kumgang. This hotel was built for family reunification events held between the DPRK and the ROK some years ago. At one point we were about two miles from the DMZ and within sight of the south, some people in the group even got a cell phone signal from the south. On the other hand artillery positions were visible several times along with many Mobile rocket launchers. Nothing like swimming on a beach, no one else there and gun revetments overhead, ROK visible just a couple miles away.
Anyway, While headed to the hotel we passed this small local train puttering along. Someday this line, that still connects to the ROK and again is seeing limited cross border freight service, will be one of the worlds great sea side train rides. The scenery is simply lovely, the beaches for the greatest part are unmolested in the DPRK and new resorts are under construction in hope of greater tourist traffic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/14 06:59 by GettingShort.

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This is the main station in Pyongyang DPRK. In the picture, a Traffic Warden, to bad not one of the most amazing traffic girls. The images at the top of the station are President Kim Il sung and General Kim Jung il, they are everywhere....


Second is the power for the daily Pyongyang to Beijing train. It departs with a diesel but somewhere it probably receives an electric as 98% of the DPRK's rail system is under wire. Unfortunately US citizens still can't take the train in and out of Korea, we have to fly, I guess the compensation is the nice new Air Koryo Tupolev 204-300 you fly in on. The Aviadvigatel turbofans have that Russian sound, they sing at high thrust.


A cars badge

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We were at the station to see off our two guides from Young Pioneer Tours who were traveling back to Beijing with an Australian lady who chose to take the train.

Our two YPT guides and Trisha from Australia, and an idea of what the second class cars China assigns to this train look like. To me they looked like Russian 3rd class Platskartny cars. The YPT guys are 100% professionals and have a great relationship with the DPRK's tourist organization.

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AWESOME! Glad no one "detained" you. Thanks for sharing.

Sorry that you thought it necessary to support this regime with your tourist dollars. Yes, good thing they didn't keep you there. Seems they don't need a reason to detain.

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> Sorry that you thought it necessary to support
> this regime with your tourist dollars. Yes, good
> thing they didn't keep you there. Seems they don't
> need a reason to detain.

I didn't go for the politics I went to experience a most unusual travel experience.

The reality is at the present time western tourism is a financial looser for the DPRK. The numbers are still tiny, approx 7K westerners visited this year (of that about 1K are from the US), probably around 9K next year. After the cost of the airfare, meals, rental of a bus, driver, and very costly fuel, and the KITC Korean guides, profit for the tour company and their expenses not much is left over. What the DPRK does get are a few jobs that give the population a chance to slowly be exposed to foreigners and see we are normal. It's a way of opening the country to the rest of the world. That to me seems a worth while goal. Constant confrontation has accomplished nothing. Interestingly it's only Americans that so fiercely hold to negative views of the country, it's more like some sort of mantra you repeat so you don't have to make the small effort to see the larger less black and white reality.
As for detaining people for any reason at any time for indefinite periods of time our country takes that prize. We also have the largest percentage of prison inmates of any country on Earth. On any given day almost 30% of the male population of the US is involved with the criminal justice system. So before we crack wise about detaining people we should take a look in the mirror.

I guess American tourists don't have to worry about being detained as long as they don't make the mistake of leaving Bibles behind in their hotel rooms.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/north-korea-indict-americans-matthew-miller-jeffrey-fowle-n144021

And if you cry in North Korea, you'd better make sure those tears are real.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16262027

andersonb109 Wrote:
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> Sorry that you thought it necessary to support
> this regime with your tourist dollars. Yes, good
> thing they didn't keep you there. Seems they don't
> need a reason to detain.

Have to agree here…………..but glad you got out of there OK.
Chris

That last place i would travel too. Today 2 US citizen was put of Trial in North Korea.

While nobody is disputing the evilness of North Korea's regime, and the feeling of pity for 99% of its brainwashed population, I wouldn't really try to get political.

People visit China, Vietnam, Iran, as well as various Arab and African countries with highly questionable human rights records. During the Cold War, Western tourists visited the USSR. Very few of ALL of those visits can be called "supporting the local regime".....most of it is just regular human curiousity.

A society such as North Korea can only exist under its current regime....as soon as the regime falls, the country will rapidly change (in both directions simultaneously), thus it is indeed a "unique" experience.

On a final note, when someone travels somewhere, they should try to follow local rules and customs in what they do and don't do. If doing/not doing something clashes with one's moral code, then one should think very carefully of that trip should not be taken.

chs7-321 Wrote:
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> While nobody is disputing the evilness of North
> Korea's regime, and the feeling of pity for 99% of
> its brainwashed population, I wouldn't really try
> to get political.
>
> People visit China, Vietnam, Iran, as well as
> various Arab and African countries with highly
> questionable human rights records. During the
> Cold War, Western tourists visited the USSR.
> Very few of ALL of those visits can be called
> "supporting the local regime".....most of it is
> just regular human curiousity.
>
> A society such as North Korea can only exist under
> its current regime....as soon as the regime falls,
> the country will rapidly change (in both
> directions simultaneously), thus it is indeed a
> "unique" experience.
>
> On a final note, when someone travels somewhere,
> they should try to follow local rules and customs
> in what they do and don't do. If doing/not doing
> something clashes with one's moral code, then one
> should think very carefully of that trip should
> not be taken.

Your last paragraph is well taken advice. Look at that goof that crossed into Mexico with all the guns. Poor baby. When you travel into someone else's country you need to comply with their laws, customs, etc. If you choose not to, you should probably stay home.

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry that you thought it necessary to support
> this regime with your tourist dollars. Yes, good
> thing they didn't keep you there. Seems they don't
> need a reason to detain.

No different than chasing steam in South Africa in the old days and adding tourist dollars to a repressive racist regime. People have to make their own decisions about where to go and what to see. And it is perfectly legal for Americans to visit N. Korea, unlike Cuba for example.

chs7-321 Wrote:
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> While nobody is disputing the evilness of North
> Korea's regime,


I guess you missed this from the OP:

GettingShort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The reality is at the present time western tourism
> is a financial looser for the DPRK. The numbers
> are still tiny, approx 7K westerners visited this
> year (of that about 1K are from the US), probably
> around 9K next year. After the cost of the
> airfare, meals, rental of a bus, driver, and very
> costly fuel, and the KITC Korean guides, profit
> for the tour company and their expenses not much
> is left over. What the DPRK does get are a few
> jobs that give the population a chance to slowly
> be exposed to foreigners and see we are normal.
> It's a way of opening the country to the rest of
> the world. That to me seems a worth while goal.
> Constant confrontation has accomplished nothing.
> Interestingly it's only Americans that so fiercely
> hold to negative views of the country, it's more
> like some sort of mantra you repeat so you don't
> have to make the small effort to see the larger
> less black and white reality.
> As for detaining people for any reason at any time
> for indefinite periods of time our country takes
> that prize. We also have the largest percentage of
> prison inmates of any country on Earth. On any
> given day almost 30% of the male population of the
> US is involved with the criminal justice system.
> So before we crack wise about detaining people we
> should take a look in the mirror.



Myanmar, then N. Korea, perhaps lovely ISIS is next on his itinerary?

But I'm just happy that 2 of Walter Duranty's grandsons have found Trainorders.

darkcloud Wrote:
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> Myanmar, then N. Korea, perhaps lovely ISIS is
> next on his itinerary?
>
Right now I'm in Japan for a few days, and then it's back to Beijing and the Trans-Manchurian train to Moscow. Eventually the breakaway republic of Transnistria via Ukraine.

Ahh but next year, Grozny in the Chechen Republic and both Ossetias, maybe, if my wife doesn't flip out too much.

> But I'm just happy that 2 of Walter Duranty's
> grandsons have found Trainorders.

masterphots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your last paragraph is well taken advice. Look at
> that goof that crossed into Mexico with all the
> guns. Poor baby. When you travel into someone
> else's country you need to comply with their laws,
> customs, etc. If you choose not to, you should
> probably stay home.


Guess you missed the part about making a wrong turn and crossing the border by accident.

Did you get any pictures of the USS Pueblo while you were there?

Jeff Smith
Lakewood, CA
RailMaster Hobbies

PHall Wrote:
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> masterphots Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Your last paragraph is well taken advice. Look
> at
> > that goof that crossed into Mexico with all the
> > guns. Poor baby. When you travel into someone
> > else's country you need to comply with their
> laws,
> > customs, etc. If you choose not to, you should
> > probably stay home.
>
>
> Guess you missed the part about making a wrong
> turn and crossing the border by accident.As

Having lived around there for 30 years, you do not cross that border by accident nor can you miss the signs about guns, etc. unless you're totally out of it while driving. Try the same excuse coming the other direction at that border crossing and see what happens. This is kinda like people that turn onto a railroad track and say GPS told me to. This happens now and then in San Diego when somebody turns off Broadway onto the trolley tracks.

darkcloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chs7-321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > While nobody is disputing the evilness of North
> > Korea's regime,
>
>
> I guess you missed this from the OP:
>


No, I saw the post, but I don't see where he was defending the North Korean regime. Just like the USSR in its Stalin days, North Korea is not exactly Mordor who's population is composed entirely of orks......there are also many regular, good-at-heart people that live there, and there's nothing wrong with visiting their country.

As for "black-and-white"......the U.S. has over its history supported some, er, "interesting" regimes and movements (Chile's Pinochet, Afghanistan's mujahadeen, Mr. Hussein when he was fighting Iran, various anti-communist movements in Africa that had an atrocious human rights in their own right, etc, etc).

As for the bit on US prison population, etc, it fits in with what I read in other reputable sources of geopolitical information....we DO have a rather high incarceration rate for a developed country.

Probably a good idea to get back to trains before this thread gets pulled.


GettingShort......I do like the North Korea rail pics....please post more if you have them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/14 09:51 by chs7-321.

UPJeff Wrote:
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> Did you get any pictures of the USS Pueblo while
> you were there?


Yes, went on board and watched a video. The ship is in superb condition and the commander of one of the Korean patrol boats involved in the capture is a docent.
There are pics on my flickr feed, look up member images , Clay Gilliland.

Chs7-321, I have a couple more of a narrow gauge suburban line in Hamhung on the west coast. I'll post them as soon as I get a chance.
Next week I'm headed to the area that's more of interest to you. Taking the trans-manchurian rout to Moscow. Still haven't decided if I should bet to Tiraspol via the overnight Moscow-Chisinau train or via Moscow- Odessa.

As for the DPRK, several tour companies Koryo and Juche tours offer rail oriented tours but I don't believe US citizens are allowed, it's one of the very few restrictions remaining. Interestingly flying in and out is easier when it comes to the customs process. Pyongyang's airport is like a pre9-11 airport in the rest of the world, next to no inspection either entering or leaving, the rail border crossing at Dandong is another matter.