Railfan Technology > NXDN consumer radio status

Welcome to my third annual NXDN report from the Dayton Hamvention.  The Hamvention is the largest “trade show” for the Amateur Radio (Ham Radio) hobby.  The attendance last year was just under 25,000 and probably about the same this year.  All major manufacturers of Amateur equipment and some of the smaller ones are represented. 
 
I have found that Don, with Kenwood is my best contact.  As a ham, he represents Kenwood at their display but his normal job is working with the railroads and their NXDN deployment.  I can discuss railroad operations with him and he is very knowledgeable about the subjects.  My number one question was, “Does Kenwood have anything in the pipeline for consumer grade monitors or scanners for NXDN?”  The answer was, “No.”  He knows of nothing in the works or even being discussed in the company and doesn’t expect it to be put on the table in the next year or two.  He did offer this insight.  He said that most of the railroads have or are in the process of installing NXDN.  The Class 1’s are well into the process but some of the smaller branch lines or short lines are dragging their feet.  Their locomotives general don’t interchange and they don’t feel the need to spend the money right now.  On the other hand, a few of the short lines were early adopters and among the first to embrace the technology.  He said that many roads are using NXDN for yards, some MOW operations, and a few other odds and ends.   He predicts that it may be 10 years before the railroads convert to NXDN for widespread mainline operations.
 
I then talked to Icom.  Absolutely nothing in the future for them.  I discussed what it would take to bring to market a new product in terms of productions.  The rep said that a minimum expected market of 10,000 units would be required.  I told him that if the unit was priced right, the railroad hobby market would probably make up half that market.
 
Next stop was the Yaesu (Vertex) area.  They produce Amateur equipment that uses the C4FM modulation, the same that NXDN uses.  Nothing in their future for NXDN either. 
 
I talked to a couple others in the scanner business and a few knew what I was talking about but some didn’t .  One retailer of scanners had one of the AOR scanners that does copy NXDN.  Price, $700 range.  Out of the market for most of us for a scanner.
 
Now for some good news… sort of.  Alinco, a smaller manufacture of radios is in the final process of building some radios for submission to the FCC for type acceptance.  The radio will be on the market by the end of the year.  Alinco radios are usually less expensive than some of the other builders.  The bad news is, the radio is a UHF version.  The VHF (160 MHz area) version won’t be introduced until about a year later.  They were mobile units.  No word on a handheld.  No prediction on the price either.
 
I don’t know it this is good news or not.  A company called “Whistler” was represented at the Hamvention.  When I ask them about NXDN, they just sort of smiled and said they couldn’t talk about it.  Does that mean they thought I was speaking Klingon or did they have something coming down the pipeline but they couldn’t talk about it yet?  I don’t know.  You can speculate how ever you want to.  I had the hunch that the pipeline was there and something was rattling around in there.  The rep was talking about the economics of putting NXDN in a scanner.  The cost of becoming a member of the NXDN group would add about $1.00 per radio.  They had three handheld radios on display, priced at $139.95, $599.95, and $649.95 so I don’t know what to expect the price range would be for one of their products that would handle NXDN.
 
That’s everything that I can think of to report for this year.  I’m not THE authority on this subject.  I know there are commercial units available but I’m trying to focus on the consumer market.  The commercial radios have been mentioned on here before.   I just try to investigate and report what the companies have to say.  If you have additional information, you’re more than welcomed to post it here.
 
One final comment.  I was told that you can pick up NXDN radios in Columbia, SC. at a bargain price of about $50.00.  There was a truck load of them stolen a few months ago on their way to the customer.  Brand new in the box.  Just waiting to be programed.  Nice to have but I just wouldn’t want to get caught with one.  I think they were Kenwoods.

John

> I don’t know it this is good news or not.  A
> company called “Whistler” was represented at
> the Hamvention.  When I ask them about NXDN, they
> just sort of smiled and said they couldn’t talk
> about it.  Does that mean they thought I was
> speaking Klingon or did they have something coming
> down the pipeline but they couldn’t talk about
> it yet?  I don’t know.  You can speculate how
> ever you want to.  I had the hunch that the
> pipeline was there and something was rattling
> around in there.  The rep was talking about the
> economics of putting NXDN in a scanner.  The cost
> of becoming a member of the NXDN group would add
> about $1.00 per radio.  They had three handheld
> radios on display, priced at $139.95, $599.95, and
> $649.95 so I don’t know what to expect the price
> range would be for one of their products that
> would handle NXDN.

Whistler took over or brought the rights for the former GRE scanner brand after they shut down. I have the handheld WS1080 and use it for the Fire and Poilce as some have started going over to digtail. I have to say it does very well on these. For now will just have to wait and see if any look into NXDN. As for now I love my Kenwood TM-281a for use on RR band. Good price 150 or less doesnt have the overload like scanner does and picks up 100 times better and it can be program by hand, but can be trying at times if you miss a step.

Great info, very interesting.
Thanks for sharing.

Doug

Is NXDN being used anywhere right now? I had heard the Transit 'Authorities' had been first to move as they considered it an added level of Security. Any info about the Freight Operations?

10 years? I may have lost my hearing by then and wouldn't be too concerned. Or maybe NXDN will allow a scripted text log of transmissions...

Thanks for the report from the Dayton Ham Radio swapfest.  One day I will get a chance to attend.
I think that NXDN in a scanner is going to be very much like P25 P1 and P2 in a scanning receiver, kind of expensive, between $400 to $600 depending on features.  Having just retired last year from working in the two way radio arena, the cost of the digital decoder and the licensing fees is what drives the cost up.
I have a very hard time justifying spending that kind of money on a scanner that does not include a transmitter.  I will however spend that kind of money or a little more for a transceiver.  That way I can use the handheld on 2-meters analog or maybe even venture one day into hams using NXDN.  Kind of like whats going on for other ham radio digital modes.
The public safety digital radio manufacturers promised a long time ago that the price of their radios would drop, if anything, they have increased to a point that many agencies cannot afford to put in P25 P1 and P2 digital radio system.
P1 and P2 = Phase 1 and Phase 2.
So, I will just wait until the railroads make the switch.
The only railroad that I know of using NXDN right now is the Cumbres and Toltec in the Chama and Antonito areas.

Pat
WA5VRO
 

Thanks CPR-489.  I knew there had been a change from GRE but I didn’t recall that it was Whistler.  Thanks for the update.  Maybe I’ll remember it the next time.
 
Doug, CSX950, thanks for your comment.  I visit Dayton just about every year and it’s the best connection I have for information.  I know that people want to know about this technology so I ask questions and try to report back to those that are interested.
 
TCnR, there are some railroads (class 1s) that seem to be using it in their yards.  I live in Louisville and I haven’t found any in use, but I haven’t searched for any in the last 6 to 10 months.  CSX and NS are the two big carriers around here.  I may need to go searching again.  Seems like the chatter on the normal road frequencies is less today than it was a few months ago.  As far as scripting, of maybe I should say “text communications,” NXDN uses the C4FM modulation format and Yaesu is using a proprietary  format (System Fusion) that also uses C4FM and their radios t a form of digital text communications.  I haven’t looked at the NSDN documents in about a year and I don’t recall if they have a data channel or not.
 
Pat, you mentioned several things.  Like scanners for P25, I suspect we will eventually have some consumer grade (IE: reasonably priced for the consumer) NXDN radios out there.  Some of the scanners cost the same, or more than a transceiver.  I know there is a group in northern Indiana with a ham band NXDN repeater and there are some others around the nation.  As for Amateur digital communications, everyone is coming out with their version of digital and none of them will talk to the others.  Kind of make it difficult to provide emergency communications when we can’t talk to each other.
 
John
 

John, I agree with your statement about agencies not being able to talk to each other, especially in an emergency or disaster.  I spent most of my career working for two state agencies here in Austin dealing with radio communicatiions issues.
Back in the analog days, we had interoperabliity.  Now with different forms of digital communications we have lost the interoperability advantage.  For a while I was chair person of the State of Texas interoperability sub-committee.  This continues to be a real challenge.
There are lots of public safety agencies who cannot afford P25 so they opt to use NXDN to meet the FCC's narrowband requirement and also have a digital system which is not currently required. 
I guesss we will have this issue from now on since in my opinion there is no formal digital communications path without being extremely expensive..
Pat
WA5VRO

Thank you everyone for the update. I had experience with the digital Ham set up
and it took over a year to go threw all the TNCs and figure out the set ups........
...Swede....NA7SL.......Albany,Or.