Railfan Technology > Radio Question

Hi TO,

Was wondering what is a good Radio to use to hear the crews when along the main line at a good price and distance. I have been looking around for a while however not sure what to use. I would like to use it when RailFanning BNSF Seligman and UP Gila Subs. Thanks in advance.

Posted from Android

Jeffrey Rossi
Mesa, AZ
HD Videos - AZ RailFan Site(No Ads)

I have a Yaesu FT-270 that I use for the RR and marine radio frequencies (does not have the aviation frequencies). I also have a Yaesu FT-60 that has a much greater frequency range. These are HAM 2-way radios (they won't transmit on the commercial frequencies). I went ahead and bought the programming software for them so that I can program them on my computer. This is much easier than programming them manually on the radio. You can program up to 10 separate memory banks for the various areas that you railfan. They are better scanners than a lot of dedicated scanners. They are about $200 for the radio and software at a HAM radio supplier. You might get a better deal on E-bay or something like that.

Old Bob out in Lost Wages

I can vouch for the Yaesu FT-250, has performed very well for me in the area you're also looking to use one. 

This question get's ask about every month or two but that's OK.  Technology changes and sometimes the answers may change.  You might want to go back through this discussion for other comments.  In the mean time, let me address a few things you might want to look at

1.)  Some railroads are using NXDN, a digital technology.  It's mostly used in yards, MOW, and a few other functions.  The communications on the mains are still analog FM as far as I know.  This may change at any time on any road.  There are no "scanners" available today for NXDN unless you want to spend some serious bucks.

2.)  There are several choices in the analog FM field.  A lot of it depends on what your needs are.  You can buy a "scanner" or you can buy one of the "ham radio" offerings.  If you go the scanner route, you don't need a scanner that does trunking, P25, Mototrbo, D-Star, or any of the other offerings available.  Almost any consumer scanner from Radio Shack (if you can find one these days), Bearcat, Uniden, or others will work for you.  Most of them are basic radios and you pay more for a more durable case, better battery life, lights, bells, features, and whistles.  Things like searching for near by transmitters, faster scan rates, and number of channels might be worth some extra money.  The "NASCAR" scanners usually have the worst antenna since they are really intended for someone at the race track and within about a mile or less from the transmitter.  Heck, you can cover that distance with kiddie walky-talky.  Other than that, I can't think of a scanner that wouldn't meet your needs.  

3.)  Ham radio offerings are usually a bit more expensive.  They offer a lot of features that you can't use, or have no use for.  They have a transmitter that you don't need, possibly some digital features that buy you nothing for for use on the railroad (not compatible with NXDN,) GPS functions, CCTSS, etc...  However, they offer about the best receivers you can get unless you purchase a business radio.  I often use two radios when I'm trackside and they are both ha radios.  Being a ham myself, it's just handy having my two way radio double as a receiver for railroad communications.  Yeasu, Icom, and Kenwood are the three big manufacturers of ham radios.  I use the Yeasu VX-170 (out of production today, replaced with the VX-270) as my normal radio.  As a back up I use a Baofeng UV-5R.  The Yeasu radio can be had for about $125.  It has an excellent receiver, a reasonable scan rate.  The Baofeng can be bought for under $50.  It has a rather good receiver but a really slow scan rate, about 30 seconds to scan 100 channels.  On the positive, it's a bit smaller and lighter and it has excellent battery life.  If I'm looking for activity by scanning, I'll use the Yeasu.  If I just want to monitor one channel, I can use the Baofeng.  The Yeasu will not transmit on the non-ham frequencies, the Baofeng will and there is no way I know of to prevent an unwanted transmission if you stuck it in your hip pocket, sit down on something and the PTT button got pushed by accident.  Technically, you could interfere with railroad communications.  Practically, it's not going to happen so it's not a really a big deal, just something you should know about.  Ham radios usually cover 144-148 MHz (2 meters,) or 420-450MHz (70CM), or both.  For railroading you usually only need the 2 meter version, just make sure it covers the 161MHz range, usually something like 137-174 MHz is typical.  A single band radio is a few bucks less than the dual band radios.  Some of the radios are very water resistant or even water proof to 3 feet, kind of nice if you think you might slip and fall in a stream.

4.) There are nearly 100 AAR channels around 161 MHz.  Any radio that has receive in the 160-162 MHz will cover the railroad frequencies.  Some railroads are using some 450-460 MHz for telemetry and listening for those devices can alert you to an coming train even if no one is talking.

5.)  Any of the scanners or ham radio handy talkies can have their performance improved for railroad usage by using an aftermarket antenna.  MFJ, Comet, Diamond, and others  makes a series that cost between $15 and $20.  Each manufacturer makes several models with different antenna connectors.  Older scanners use the BNC connectors.   Newer radios use what's called an SMA connector.  If you have a radio with an SMA connection you need to be aware that the three major manufacturers have a female connector on the radio and the Chinese (Baofeng) use the male connector.

I haven't bought a "scanner" in about 20 years.  Others can make suggestions on a brand or model.  I use ham radio equipment that also functions as a scanner.   The scanners will usually scan a bit faster than the ham radios.  The ham radios usually have better receivers and more durable cases.  Hope this helps a bit.  Drop me a line if you want some additional suggestions in the ham radio field.

John

^There is one significant inaccuracy in what was posted above:  with narrow-banding there are now 178 AAR channels available, though few of the new "splinter" channels are being used as of yet.   If one counts the NXDN digital channels available as separate channels (though they use the same frequencies as the analog channels), the number goes to 356.  Not surprising, then, that the "railroad spec" portable and mobile analog/NXDN-capable models are 500 channel radios.  Note that none of the current amateur radios are NXDN-capable and that very few of them are tunable to the new narrow-band "splinter" channels.

Most cheap scanners have really crappy performance in the two areas that are important to railfans: they lack sufficient selectivity to reject unwanted signals in congested urban areas, and they lack sufficient sensitivity to pick up weak signals in rural areas not close to transmitters or repeaters.  Of the two, selectivity is probably the most important because, when one adds an aftermarket antenna to improve the radio's performance in picking up weak signals, the antenna will also strengthen unwanted signals that the radio is incapable of rejecting.  Generally speaking, scanners have the worst selectivity spec and commercial radios the best, with amateur radios falling somewhere in the middle.  A third important spec to look at is audio output.  I consider 500 MW of audio output the minimum for a portable radio, with 800 MW or more preferable.  Many scanners only put out 300 MW of audio or less, and often through a smaller, less efficient speaker than that of an amateur or commercial radio.  A radio with the best receive specs in the world is no good if the audio can't be heard in a noisy environment like that around a railroad.

Depending on your budget, here is one of the NXDN capable radios that some railroads use.
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/landmobile/portables/f3261_series/specifications.aspx

I've had the predecessor model for 5+ years with no complaints.
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/landmobile/portables/f3161_series/specifications.aspx

Search this forum as there is plenty of information regarding portable radios to use.

d.

I too have the Yaesu FT-270 and am quite pleased with it's performance and range of picking up signals and transmissions.
What specification, of a scanner, do you look for or might tell you the range of a scanner?
Thanks, agrafton

^The Yaesu FT-270 is essentially an amateur radio built on a Yaesu commercial chassis.  It has very good selectivity and sensitivity specs, and has decent audio.  Its major pitfall is that it will not tune the analog splinter channels and it is not an NXDN capable radio.    A good source for reviews of amateur equipment is www.eham.net . 

Mentioned above, the Icom 3161 and 3261 commercial portables are very good portable radios--however, if one goes to buy one, make sure that it is the IDAS (Icom's name for NXDN) model.  The 3161/3261 IDAS models are used extensively by the railroads, as is the Kenwood NX-210 portable.  The mobile version of the 3161/3261 is the Icom IC-F5061DT IDAS model and it is a very good mobile.  The mobile version of the Kenwood NX-210 is the NX-700, also a very good radio.  The only ones of these radios that I have not personally used is the 3261 (I use the 3161--the 3261 is essentially the same radio, except that it has louder audio and is better waterproofed--my understanding is that Icom will be phasing out the 3161) and the NX-210.  I know a number of people who do use the NX-210 and they tell me that it is a fine radio.  I'm not surprised, its mobile cousin (the NX-700) which I do use is a great radio. 

All of the NXDN radios are pricey--Icom usually has a price advantage over Kenwood because Icom allows its dealers to compete against either somewhat, Kenwood tries to discourage that. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/15 08:51 by WW.

WW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> if one goes to buy one, make sure that it is the
> IDAS (Icom's name for NXDN) model.  The 3161/3261
> IDAS models are used extensively by the railroads,

The "D" suffix radios are equipped with IDAS, i.e. IC-F3261DT would be IDAS (NXDN) capable with full numeric keypad.  I beleive the newer model 3261 radios are all delivered as digital (NXDN) capable.  It was an option in the 3161 radio.

d.

251F Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > if one goes to buy one, make sure that it is
> the
> > IDAS (Icom's name for NXDN) model.  The
> 3161/3261
> > IDAS models are used extensively by the
> railroads,
>
> The "D" suffix radios are equipped with IDAS, i.e.
> IC-F3261DT would be IDAS (NXDN) capable with full
> numeric keypad.  I beleive the newer model 3261
> radios are all delivered as digital (NXDN)
> capable.  It was an option in the 3161 radio.
>
> d.
Price ----->  $950.00 ±     ( IF my lottery # hit!! )

chuchubobnv Wrote:

> Price ----->  $950.00 ±     ( IF my lottery
> # hit!! )

A couple searches and I found the IC-F3261DT for $499.
http://www.hitechwireless.com/icom-ic-f3261dt-01-vhf-digital-analog-portable-radio/?gclid=CLXw__WXy8kCFQdafgoddEQA1w

Of course, that does not include the $100 programming software (a must) and the $40 programming cable (another must).

I further discovered that unlike the 3161DT, the 3261DT does not include a battery charger.  Yet another must have for $40 (desktop rapid charger)

If anyone is considering this radio, do yourself a favor and pick up a Laird EXH-160-MXI antenna.  The best $15 you'll ever spend.  (The railroads sure think so)

d.

(edited to add battery charger and antenna information )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/15 21:14 by 251F.

Thank WW for the correction on the number of channels.  Channels 02-97 (07-97 in the US) are the most used.  There are the new 6.25KHz channels but most of what we want to listen to is on the 07-97 channels.  Eventually the railroads will be moving different operations to those other channels.  Also mentioning sensitivity, most scanners have sensitivity of 0.5uV or better on the railroad frequencies.  Most ham radios are around 0.2 to 0.25uV (lower is better.)  The problem with many scanners is they often don't publish this information.  Looking for selectivity and image characteristics is even more elusive.  As WW also mentioned, some of the ham radios have business radio technologies built into them.  The comment about the aftermarket antenna is worth aditional comment also.  If you are in an RF rich environment, such as an industrial area or a large city, you might have problems with other services causing interferance to you.  If you are in a rural or small town, you may not have to worry about that.  I wrote an article a few years ago describing the improvements I experienced with the aftermarket antenna.  http://members.trainorders.com/wa4umr/handheld%20antennas.htm 

One other thing to consider if you go with one of the ham radios.  The programming can become rather time consuming (I guess it can with a scanner also) and there is often third party software that makes programming the radio much easier. Those products range from about $25 to $50 and may or may not include the cable to connect the radio to the computer.  Some of the newer radios are able to handle the new 6.25KHz slots.

Again, thanks WW for highlighting those items.  

John

Great info guys.
I'm usually very enthusiastic about Yeasu HAM radios for the Rail-Fan crowd but this digital thing is a big cloud over all future purchases. There was even a report that the RR's were not happy with the performance, so even that 'inevitable doom' idea is even in question.

As said before, if all goes wrong Yeasu radios should have a good re-sale value on the HAM market so I didn't have much concern about that purchase.

Recently lost another radio I've had for a few ... decades, so I needed a general purpose scanner. I found I could buy a Lithium-Ion battery pack for my ancient Bearcat BC-10. Great reception, multiple bands, nice key pad but the display is a bit lacking. Money well spent.

A couple of more comments.  I have long been a fan of the Laird EXH-160___ (which denotes the mHz tuning of the antenna--the suffix letters are different depending on the connector of the antenna, the MXI fits the Icom 3161/3261).  The Lairds do have great performance.  My only caveat is that, under really hard use, the antenna can break internally and not be readily visible--the performance just craters.  We use a lot of them where I work and we have had several of them fail before their second birthday.

Unlike Kenwood radios, Icom radios, software and programming cables can be found at discounted prices if one shops around a bit.  Another caveat, there are a lot of third party websites that sell "knockoff" programming cables for Icoms.  Many of them have bad USB drivers that won't work properly and may even screw up youir computer.  My suggestion is to spend the extra $ and get a genuine Icom cable.  Also, many of those third party vendors sell cables that are denoted as compatible with both Icom 3161 and 3261 models.  THEY ARE NOT.  The 3261 uses a different pin configuration than the 3161 and I have yet to see a third-party programming cable that is actually for a 3261.

WW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

  Another
> caveat, there are a lot of third party websites
> that sell "knockoff" programming cables for
> Icoms. 

Indeed, and in some cases, the knockoff costs more than the Icom genuine article.

I wholly agree, stick with genuine Icom accessories to avoid trouble.

d.

Thanks Everyone for your comments and recommendations.

Jeffrey Rossi
Mesa, AZ
HD Videos - AZ RailFan Site(No Ads)

TCnR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great info guys.
> I'm usually very enthusiastic about Yeasu HAM
> radios for the Rail-Fan crowd but this digital
> thing is a big cloud over all future purchases.
> There was even a report that the RR's were not
> happy with the performance, so even that
> 'inevitable doom' idea is even in question.
>

I don't thing that digi is a good modality for
railroad operations, where signal strength can
be quite variable. The analog mode will prevail
where the digi radio will drop info. If you have
cable TV, you might notice once in a while 'dropped'
packets of data... white spaces on the screen... So
imagine the DS talking to a train way out in East
Dogpatch, where the signal strength is weak, and the
DS's order is 'changed' because a 'not' in a sentence
is dropped, changing the meaning the message...
Variations on this theme will cause havoc here and
there...

We'll see how this progresses.

John, aka K6KMJ.

jkh2cpu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't thing that digi is a good modality for
> railroad operations, where signal strength can
> be quite variable. The analog mode will prevail
> where the digi radio will drop info. If you have
> cable TV, you might notice once in a while
> 'dropped'
> packets of data... white spaces on the screen...
> So
> imagine the DS talking to a train way out in East
> Dogpatch, where the signal strength is weak, and
> the
> DS's order is 'changed' because a 'not' in a
> sentence
> is dropped, changing the meaning the message...
> Variations on this theme will cause havoc here
> and
> there...
>
> We'll see how this progresses.
>
> John, aka K6KMJ.

Analog RF interference or a weak analog transmission that drops in signal strength below the receiving radios's squelch threshold has the same result.  That is why the "repeat-back" procedures have been in place on railroad radio for decades.  I have used both analog and NXDN digital extensively.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but there is no question in my mind that the railroads will eventually be all digital--the NXDN platform offers too many other features that make radio communications more versatile for it to be ignored.  I would grant that in remote areas NXDN may not perform quite as well as WIDE-BAND analog, but amateur radio bands are the only band still allowed to use wide band analog.  NXDN is, overall, equal to or better than narrow-band analog in performance, but most people making an analog to digital comparison are doing so based on their memories of the wide band analog radio performance that is gone for good in the commercial two-way radio bands.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/15 12:00 by WW.

You actually can disable the transmit on the baofeng. Its just a PITA

Posted from Android

Great basic info here...I"ll add my two cents worth, as a railroader with access to the NXDN radios.
I wouldn't worry about NXDN for now, the railroads are all very busy with the PTC stuff, and once they did get all of the "narrowband shift" radios in place, they moved on to other hot button issues.
Nowhere I work is even using the "splinter" frequencies between the traditionals.  My "work" radio is a Kenwood Nexedge, their proprietarty name for an NXDN capable radio.  It's pretty robust, I've dropped mine a few times, and seen a few irate conductors throw them against hopper cars before, and they still work.  It has 15 banks, but on my railroad issues one, only 5 are active.  They don't have the range of the older Motorola radios we used to use, but I think that comes with the narrowbanding more than radio issues. the narrowband radios are pretty quick to squelch out any "static" they think I don't want to hear, which is good, untill that "static" is my conductor at the rear of a 205 car train trying to contact me on the radio...Lots of times they end up having to do the "statue of liberty pose" as we call it to hold the radio up so that I have a chance to hear me...And i should add that I work in the flatlands of the midwest, not in some confined mountainous or heavily wooded areas!
Icom radios were issued to conductors at the outset of the narrowband shift, but they were found to be very weak transmitting and not robust at all, and were all gone within 3 years.  Conversely, I have my Kenwood which itself is about 7 years old at this point and still works great!)  The Icom's might be just perfect for railfan use, but for the everyday railroader they were 'junk!'
I had a Yeasu Ft2800m (modified to transmit, since, hey I work at the railroad and lucky me) that I used as a base radio in my car.  It was a little slow on the scanning, but man, did it have GREAT reception and TX range.   I once did a test and was able to hit a tower (we use touchtone keypads to "tone up" the dispatchers) 45 miles away with some regularity...even farther on good radio skip nights...
I sold the Yeasu but keep the railroad supplied Kenwood, since it scans much faster.  I have it set to scan all 100 AAR channels on one bank (that's my traveling bank) and one bank is my home zone that scans about 25 channels of things in the area I live and work in.  
I should add that all the Railroad radios have the railroad channels displayed by AAR number, not frequency.  Unless you are talking to the Communications and Signals (sometimes called Train Control) department, nobody at the railroad uses the Mhz frequencies when talking about radio channels...EVERYONE uses the AAR channel number.  Whatever you decide, make sure you have at minimum 100 channels to program, and you'll want to organaze your radio that way too...When you hear a crew say "Go over to 38 to talk to the dispatcher" you can just follow them right there, not go scratching through a book to find that channel AAR 38 is 160.680Mhz.  You can google "AAR channel list" and get the conversion chart. Program it once, then forget the Mhz numbers!
One of the banks the railroad sets up on our radios is just the NOAA weather service frequencies--which is helpful, since, ya know, we are outside and all. If you get a radio with the capability, there are only 6 or 7 NOAA channels (Environment Canada uses the same freq's), and they are definitely worth putting in your radio. Then, in the even of an emergency or power outage, you look like the hero prepared for it with a scanner radio that has the weather alerts on it!
If you do end up with a radio that does transmit, please resist the temptation to talk on it...We  can figure out pretty quick who's a railroader and who isn't...we have had a few visits from the FCC at our towers in the yard (which record everything transmitted all the time) to "pull the tapes" because of some suspicious radio transmisions.  The railroads take those things pretty seriously.
Above all, however, listen in, learn about railroad operations and ENJOY IT!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/15 18:07 by DrLoco.