Western Railroad Discussion > Wood versus concrete ties

UP is using wood ties to reconstruct the track through Alviso. Are concrete ties too costly for use on this line? The VTA used concrete ties on their recent light rail extension.

The decision to use wood or concrete ties always confuses me but I assume there is a good reason for the use of either in a particular project. The BNSF has built set-out tracks on the Needles Sub with concrete ties but then as done signficant wooden tie replacement on mainlines when I would think that concrete would be used. I guess that budget and availability issues maybe to blame for some of this.

I'm not sure how much budget plays into it, but I know that availability is a pretty large factor. The Blair sub in Iowa and Nebraska was done in concrete just because they couldn't get wooden ties. Not a high tonnage line, 30-35 trains a day.

In California the RR can NOT use wood ties for any "new" track. So is it had wood already they can replace with wood. Because of the creasote or how ever that is spelled. I do know that concrete ties cost a LOT more.

uprrman156

Many of the BNSF and UP tie projects in recent years have installed concrete ties on superelevated curves and left the tangent track with its wood ties.

uprrman156 Wrote:
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> In California the RR can NOT use wood ties for any
> "new" track. So is it had wood already they can
> replace with wood. Because of the creasote or how
> ever that is spelled. I do know that concrete ties
> cost a LOT more.

? Then how is BNSF getting away with using wood ties for significant stretches of the new 3rd track between LA and Fullerton? Maybe these new wood ties don't contain creosote...they look lighter than ties treated with creosote.

I saw 10 loads of untreated ties on M-CHNP one day last week. So evidently they use them somewhere.

Tim K.

The pros and cons of concrete ties are still under debate, but from an engineering point of view:
Plus: Concrete ties are much stronger and heavier. This makes them suitable for curves where they resist gauge widening and lateral shifting. Rail may be removed and replaced without damaging the ties (compared to wood ties where pulling and re-driving spikes breaks up the wood.)
Minus: Concrete ties are very sensitive to moisture; they need to be kept in good ballast. Standing water will help grind them from below. They are sensitive to derailment damage.
Cost: The concrete ties are more expensive than wood ties but when all costs are included a mile of new track with concrete ties is not much more than wood ties. There are 3250 wood ties in a mile and 2640 concrete ties. The whole cost of wood tie track has to include tie plates, spikes, and anchors.
Service life: Wood ties are known to last 20-40 years, so a RR always have a maintenance obligation to replace them. The oldest concrete ties are nearly 50 years old now and still in service. Concrete ties need maintenance too. The plastic and rubber tie pads and insulators wear out and have to be replaced. Some concrete ties have been made with poorly selected aggregates that slowly react and expand, shattering the ties after 5-15 years. Then they all have to be replaced.
Mixed use: Concrete ties cannot be spotted into wood tie track because they are too rigid and end up taking all the load. 100% of the ties have to be changed. In practice this means heavy curves and track that it is too disruptive to change out wood ties on a periodic basis. That may be why the BNSF went with wood ties: because there are three tracks they can get a tie gang out there from time to time.
Environment: I don't know any prohibition from using creosoted wood in construction of track, utility poles, or others, but creosoted wood is a hazardous material when it is sent to a disposal site. Over the long term this may swing the arguement towards concrete ties.

timkilbride Wrote:
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> I saw 10 loads of untreated ties on M-CHNP one day
> last week. So evidently they use them somewhere.
>
> Tim K.

What a WASTE of money! UNTREATED wood ties?!? They'll be rotten in 5 years or less.

Everybody has been mentioning wood vs. concrete. Concrete is the way to go on heavy-haul routes with many trains per day, such as the BNSF Transcon, the Powder River Basin, and the UP's triple track territory where a train runs every twenty minutes.

But...let's not forget plastic/composite ties. They are better than wood, and have a life expectancy closer to concrete than to wood. Best of all...they can be interspersed with wood ties. A massive tie project on my subdivision was 2/3 plastic/composite, 1/3 new wood ties (treated, thank goodness). And...in high humidity southern climates...plastic/composite has lots of advantages. They are not prone to the breakage concrete ties can be plagued with if tamping is not perfect. Also, plastic ties fare better in mild derailments than either wood or plastic ties. They have "give" to them. Have seen places where one truck or axle got on the ground, maybe for a mile or longer, and the rubbery plastic/composite ties did not even show evidence of flange marks. I'm a big fan of them. They ride well. Aesthetically...from the cab...they look quite similar, and have similar coloration to wood ties. Going over twenty MPH, you can't even tell which ones are new wood or new plastic.

Plastic/composite ties are priced mid-range between wood and concrete. Concrete is the cream of the crop, to be sure...but I think you get more "bang for your buck" with plastic than with concrete, in most applications.

A recent Railway Age article listed a breakdown of all new tie purchases by the major Class I's...the big four. All buy a blend of concrete, wood, and plastic/composite...naturally the amounts vary from RR to RR.

I also think that plastic ties are perfectly suited for yards, where poor drainage might be an issue. If you relay a yard with plastic ties...said yard will not need tie work until most of us on this board are old codgers. One siding on my sub (the main next to it was also re-tied) got one hundred percent plastic/composite ties. A smart move...that siding now will not need to be touched until after I retire. I wish they'd do ALL the sidings this way. Siding maintenance is a seriously overlooked issue. Having 20 or 30 MPH sidings vs. wobbly 10 MPH sidings would do more to improve the much-vaunted "velocity" measurement than raising the mainline speed limit by 10 or 20 MPH...and probably MORE.

Here is the definition of Creosote...

What is creosote?

Creosote is the name used for a variety of products: wood creosote, coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles. These products are mixtures of many chemicals created by high-temperature treatment of beech and other woods, coal, or from the resin of the creosote bush.

Wood creosote is a colorless to yellowish greasy liquid with a smoky odor and burned taste. Coal tar creosote is a thick, oily liquid that is typically amber to black in color. Coal tar and coal tar pitch are usually thick, black, or dark-brown liquids or semisolids with a smoky odor.

Wood creosote has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment, but is rarely used these ways today. Coal tar products are used in medicines to treat skin diseases such as psoriasis, and are also used as animal and bird repellents, insecticides, restricted pesticides, animal dips, and fungicides. Coal tar creosote is the most widely used wood preservative in the United States. Coal tar, coal tar pitch, and coal tar pitch volatiles are used for roofing, road paving, aluminum smelting, and coking.

What happens to creosote when it enters the environment?

* Coal tar creosote is released to water and soil mainly as a result of its use in the wood preservation industry.
* Coal tar creosote may dissolve in water and may move through the soil to the groundwater.
* Once it is in the groundwater, it may take many years for it to break down.
* Coal tar creosote can build up in plants and animals.
* No information is available on what happens to wood creosote when it enters the environment.

How might I be exposed to creosote?

* Eating herbal remedies containing the leaves from the creosote bush (chaparral) which are sold as dietary supplements.
* Working in the wood preservative, coke-producing, or asphalt industries.
* Using creosote-treated wood in building fences, bridges, or railroad tracks, or installing telephone poles.
* Living in treated-wood houses that may result in air or skin contact with creosote.
* Drinking water contaminated by a hazardous waste site.

How can creosote affect my health?

Breathing vapors of the creosotes, coal tar, coal tar pitch, or coal tar pitch volatiles can cause irritation of the respiratory tract. Eating large amounts of creosote (any form) may cause a burning in the mouth and throat and stomach pains. Eating large amounts of herbal remedies containing creosote bush leaves may cause liver damage, while large amounts of coal tar creosote may result in severe skin irritation, eye burns, convulsions, unconsciousness, and even death.

Long-term (365 days or longer) exposure to lower levels of coal tar creosote, coal tar, coal tar pitch, or coal tar pitch volatiles by skin or air contact can cause skin damage such as blistering or peeling.

Animals fed large amounts of wood creosote had convulsions and died, while those fed lower levels had liver and kidney problems. Animal studies have shown that when pregnant animals breathe creosote, it may cause harmful effects to the baby.

How likely is creosote to cause cancer?

Long-term exposure, especially direct contact with skin during wood treatment or manufacture of coal tar creosote-treated products, to low levels of creosote has resulted in skin cancer and cancer of the scrotum. Cancer of the scrotum in chimney sweeps has been associated with long-term skin exposure to soot and coal tar creosotes. Animal studies have also shown skin cancer from skin exposure to coal tar products.

The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined that coal tar creosote is probably carcinogenic to humans. The EPA has also determined that coal tar creosote is a probable human carcinogen.

> timkilbride Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> I saw 10 loads of untreated ties on M-CHNP
> one day
> last week. So evidently they use them
> somewhere.
>
> Tim K.

Red Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------

> What a WASTE of money! UNTREATED wood ties?!?
> They'll be rotten in 5 years or less.

Maybe on their way to the tie treating plant. The tie treating plant at The Dalles (OR) has acres of untreated ties stacked up. It looks like they are air drying (curing?) them before they put them in the pressure cooker.

jb

I didn't know I was even interested in this topic when the thread started. Thanks to those-who-know and for letting the rest of us see some of the factors behind this subject. This is the kind of real info I've come to expect on Trainorders.

--Mark J