Western Railroad Discussion > To Matt Rose & Dick Davidson

the federal gov't just passed a bill requiring gas to have at least 30% ethanol(about 5 billion gallons a year) in it by 2012. diana feinstein & barbara boxer of california oppose this bill because get this-there is no economical way to transport the ethanol from the midwest to the west coast. therefore this will drive-up the price of gas in california. will one of you please e-mail these women explaining what a train is, how it works & how much it can haul. mr. davidson you can send them a video of the oil cans showing it hauling 1.8 millions gallons of oil in one trip. like the canadian gov't buying hoppers for farmers, our gov't can buy about 1000 33,000 gallon tanks(10 train set)least them to the railroads are oil company & there you have a cheap mobil pipeline. ms.feinstein & ms.boxer thank you for supporting amtrak but those other trains serves a purpose too. in they are pretty damn efficent too.

California can always pull up those grape vines and plant corn.

Ernest and Julio shoepeg white - earthy aroma, zesty to the palate yet a hint of sweetness.

peddler

johnny468 wrote:

> the federal gov't just passed a bill requiring
> gas to have at least 30% ethanol(about 5 billion
> gallons a year) in it by 2012. diana feinstein &
> barbara boxer of california oppose this bill
> because get this-there is no economical way to
> transport the ethanol from the midwest to the
> west coast. therefore this will drive-up the
> price of gas in california. will one of you
> please e-mail these women explaining what a
> train is, how it works & how much it can haul.

Rail transport has been the method referred
to in most of the news stories I've read on the
ethanol issue, so I'd guess that's what the
senators are pointing to as "uneconomical."
Trains may well be the least expensive way to
move the stuff, but that doesn't necessarily
mean it will be cheap. The issue as I recall
was bigger than just transportation, though, as
adding ethanol also requires a big ramp-up in
ethanol production (which someone will have to pay
for) and building facilities to load and unload
(which someone will have to pay for). Meanwhile,
the refiners are telling California Gov. Davis
that they can refine gasoline to the point now
that it doesn't need an oxygenate at all. That
was what they were trying to impress on the
Feds, but there are other interests in ethanol
producing states who would very much like to
see ethanol required in gasoline.

Count Ohio in as one of those ethanol states!

Just out of curiousity, do the economics improve if grain is shipped and the ethanol is produced in California?

The point is that California is one of the largest crude oil producing states, pumping almost as much as Alaska and almost as much as we get from our friends in Iraq. If you add in what is received at the coastal refineries from Alaska and foreign sources like Indonesia and Mexico, California does not need to import any oil or oil product, including gasoline. So importing ethanol BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER is going to increase the price of gasoline, while they can make all the MTBE they want (although I don't know if it is made in California or not).

And as far as ripping up grapevines and planting corn, HUH??? May I remind one and all what the grapes are for? And may I also remind one and all that pure ethanol sells for around $1.00/gallon whether it comes from corn or grapes, while cheap box wine is around $10.00/gallon? What was it again about pullin' up those grapes???

lowwater

lowwater wrote:

> The point is that California is one of the largest crude oil
> producing states, pumping almost as much as Alaska and almost
> as much as we get from our friends in Iraq. If you add in what
> is received at the coastal refineries from Alaska and foreign
> sources like Indonesia and Mexico, California does not need to
> import any oil or oil product, including gasoline. So importing
> ethanol BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER is going to increase the price
> of gasoline, while they can make all the MTBE they want
> (although I don\\'t know if it is made in California or not).




From what you typed above, it seems you don't understand what ethanol or MTBE are used for. They are designed to reduce the emissions from your tailpipe. MTBE is indeed made in California and the oil companies made significant investments in the stuff back in the late Eighties/early Nineties to satisfy air quality concerns. Problem is, apparently the stuff pollutes the groundwater. Hence, the requirement to shift to ethanol. The oil companies are unhappy about it, because it means their investment in MTBE is worthless. Sure, you can do without either ethanol or MTBE, but then you wouldn't be able to meet the air quality requirements. As for the oil companies' statements that they can refine gasoline well enough that no oxygenates are necessary, I'm not so sure that's true. Adding the oxygenates costs them money because it adds an extra step in the refining process that they can't necessarily pass through to customers.

BobE

Great comment on the grapes!!! (though you might want to add something to indicate the possible use of sarcasm in your comment!)

Just thought I'd mention that I like my ethanol better after it sits in an oak barrel for a few years. One of the by-products of ethanol is the "mash" which is a fairly high volume of the production. Among other things it makes a good cattle feed (hic). Makes you wonder why they can't use all that waste heat from power plants to make the stuff, but thats prolly a silly idea.

The local Malabar yard job informed me that the Exxon-Mobil facility at 37th Street on the Harbor Sub will soon be receiving 5 cars a day,five days a week, of the "stuff".
JB

MTBE is a byproduct of the refining process. Here in Illinois ethanol is only used in gas sold in the 6 county metro area of Chicago and northwest Indiana. 10% ethanol 90% gas. Commonly referred to as RFG (Reformulated Gasoline). Although refiners don't like it because they sell 10% less gasoline the government gives them a tax break for complying with it. The biggest proponents of ethanol use is your farm groups and of course the ethanol producers themselves. ADM,Cargill, AGP, Williams and others. According to a Citgo manager at the Lemont IL refinery the cost of producing RFG is 5 cents a gallon. Then you look at what you pay at the pump and wonder who is gouging who here. Hope this answers some questions. Dan Tracy Joliet IL

BobE wrote:

> As for the oil companies' statements that
> they can refine gasoline well enough that
> no oxygenates are necessary, I'm not so
> sure that's true.

To believe oil companies, you'd have to be able to trust in Arthur Andersen first. You'd have to be parking massive ETOH abuse. Ask anyone in the Bay Area how much they believe the Richmond refinery fire is the true reason their gas is more expensive now. If any law did much more to help that get lead out of gas, the fuel volume California requires would have farmers (and ADM) melting down Donner, Shasta and Whitney to sell local grain for ethanol, and pipelines carrying it in till then because the demand would swamp rail.

dt8089 wrote:

ADM,Cargill, AGP,
> Williams and others. According to a Citgo manager at the
> Lemont IL refinery the cost of producing RFG is 5 cents a
> gallon. Then you look at what you pay at the pump and wonder
> who is gouging who here. Hope this answers some questions.
> Dan Tracy Joliet IL
>
> [%sig%]

In looking at the figures here in the Iowa/Minnesota/Nebraska market, ADM. Cargill, and Williams only make up about 25% of the total production. The rest come from farmer-owned co-ops. From a value added standpoint, it is much cheaper to produce the ethanol here in Iowa, and ship it to end points.

Locally, there is a plant coming on-line in December that will produce 45 million gallons a year in Lakota, IA. The surrounding are has about 39 plants either on-line or being built. Most of them have rail access and ship product via rail. ADM is the single largest producer of ethanol, with 4 plants having an output of 950 mg/y.

As far as the effect of gas prices, the states are promoting the use of Ethanol fuels. In Iowa, the pump price for ethanol is the same as clear un-leaded gasoline. The same in Illinois, and Wisconsin. The actual cost of adding ethanol is not at the refinery, but at the rack.

Right now, Ethanol is shipped in large quantities from Cedar Rapids to Texas almost daily on UP. And from what I was able to find out via the 'net, it has not effected the pump or rack prices all that drastically.

For more information, go to the AAA daily gas price service on their web site, and for ethanol, point thy pointer to http://www.ethanolrfa.org/eth_prod_fac.html


Ken
Mason City, IA