Western Railroad Discussion > Too Much Coal?

After all the public complaints about the dust and dropped coal by people in the Pacific Northwest (in the context of opposing new coal unloading facilities), I have to question the judgement of the coal mine operators and/or the UP operating department for loading a train that looked like this. Almost every car had the load heaped to the top of the sides. This was northbound between Salt Lake City and Ogden so it had already been over quite a few miles. Sometimes I fear the coal industry brings on criticism that is justified. I delayed posting this in case that train was going to go to Portland or Vancouver and would stimulate activists to document it.
The cars also tended to be not full at one end or the other, so by weight they were probably not overloaded. This shows the difference between data (e.g. car weight) and judgement (e.g. direct observation). To a computer this car was probably not overloaded. To anyone affected it was an avoidable mess.

---

Actually looking from the top, Mike, its loaded fine, like all the loads coming out of the CO coal country. The mines have a topper than smooths out the top and shapes the sides.

Mike has a point. With the gons loaded with that much coal, there's the possibility for a lot of it to be blown off in transit.

By loading coal just below the top of the gon, someone with not too much knowledge of railroading wouldn't even be able to surmise what the car was loaded with. Out of sight, out of mind. And it would reduce coal dust blow off.

A friend of mine who works for NS says they have a new unofficial slogan: "COAL: We don't BURN it -- we just MOVE it."

If it was loaded below the top, a couple more. Cars would be needed to carry th e same amount of coal and additional shipping cost.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/13 12:55 by sgerken.

Interesting that the subject of possible overloading would come up on the grim anniversary of the Duffy St. incident. Never forget!

sgerken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If it was loaded below the top, a couple more.
> Cars would be needed to carry th e same amount of
> coal and additional shipping cost.

Yes on the extra cars, but isn't coal priced by weight?

Looks a bit fine for my forge, but blow me some this way anyway. Would love to try it since there's no local sources in Western Kansas for years and shipping a bag or two is unreasonable nowadays.

4451Puff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting that the subject of possible
> overloading would come up on the grim anniversary
> of the Duffy St. incident. Never forget!


i'm not familiar with the Duffy St incident

I've noticed that coal can be loaded into the car with the top of the "bread loaf" profile at varying heights relative to the top of the car body. It seems not to be a universal thing. And I recall reading or hearing some years ago (sorry, do not remember the reference) that it can vary by the car type and its tare weight, the type of coal and its characteristics (such as density and moisture content), and other factors. Whether that is still true I don't know.

By coincidence, this discussion arose on the same day that I posted two images (including one that's an overhead view and relative close-up) of loaded coal trains. Take a look at the third and fourth images in this thread: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3072430. The "bread loaf" profile in these hoppers is just above the top of the car. These UCEX cars are aluminum-body, Ortner-type Rapid Discharge hoppers, a type which utility owner Ameren has favored for many years. The coal is almost certainly from one of the PRB mines. Some of the hoppers in the second train also were dual service, and had ends marked for rotary-dumping. When I lived in Colorado, I saw trains of such aluminum Rapid Discharge hoppers which had shorter bodies than these UCEX hoppers, and in which the top of the "bread loaf" was very high above the top of the car body. So it seems to vary even for the same type of car.

MC
Columbia, Missouri

Ironmtn has a good illustration of what I am used to seeing.
I was with a very senior ex-DRGW track supervisor and he also said he had not seen one that full. It was on top of the side rails. I have seen many, many coal trains in PRB and going through the Pacific NW and this was exceptional.
That is why I photographed it.

railstiesballast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ironmtn has a good illustration of what I am used
> to seeing.
> I was with a very senior ex-DRGW track supervisor
> and he also said he had not seen one that full.
> It was on top of the side rails. I have seen
> many, many coal trains in PRB and going through
> the Pacific NW and this was exceptional.
> That is why I photographed it.


If there was coal on the side rails after that many miles (at the very least over Soldier Summit), and it looks to be the case toward the left side in the pic, this car was improperly loaded, whether human or mechanical error who knows. The more manually-controlled the loadout the more frequently this happens -- one end loaded heavy, the other light. The pictorial evidence is a little sketchy to be sure but it looks to me like the coal is fairly hard -2" mine run treated with a dust suppressant so I suspect dust loss would have been minimal, regardless of loading profile. Most loss would have been coarser sizes falling off the edges at the loadout and in the first few miles.

No coal producer ignores losses, regardless of size. While coal is usually sold by the scale at the mine (FOB), weights are frequently and in some cases always checked by the receiver and adjustments made as necessary. And enroute as well, it's really embarrassing -- and costly -- to send out overloads that have to set out, unloaded to spec by a contractor at outrageous prices, and then sent on at an even more outrageous carload rate.....

And imagine that you are a 50,000,000 tpy coal producer and routinely have a 5% dust loss rate. That's 2,500,000 tons per year you eventually won't get paid for, or worse have to pay back. Not very good business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/13 20:31 by lowwater.

Reminds me of the days of spilled sugar beets alongside the Coast.

Looks normal to me... I've been seeing the NAM, BTM and ETM drags entering NM that way, on there way to AZ. I do remember watching the Midland guys loading the gons like that at El. Segundo.

Posted from Android

Duffy Street incident = runaway coal train on Cajon in 1989 (IIRC)


Wasn't one of the causes a failure to properly describe the weight of the train?

most of the loads out of the powder river basin have something sprayed on the top of the load to help keep the dust in check.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duffy Street incident = runaway coal train on
> Cajon in 1989 (IIRC)
>
>
> Wasn't one of the causes a failure to properly
> describe the weight of the train?

All cars were based on estimated weights by the yard clerk

sgerken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If it was loaded below the top, a couple more.
> Cars would be needed to carry th e same amount of
> coal and additional shipping cost.


Ah, Capitalism.. gotta love it.

Duffy St runaway was indeed bad (light) weights in the computer. The commodity was soda ash or some other material in covered hoppers. The night chief dispatcher "knew" all these trains were heavy and assigned a helper set based on his experience and it was needed to get up the west side of the pass. But the inexperienced engineer believed the computer tonnage rating and headed down the east side as if the train was less than 80 Tons Per Operative Brake when in fact is was over 100. This led him to think he was safe at 30 or 35 MPH when he should have been 20 (?). That half the dynamic brakes were inoperative did not leave any margin for error either. IIRC reconstruction of the events showed that a full emergency stop at the top of the hill from about 35 or a little more may have been able to bring it under control, but instead he kept making smaller reductions until the speed was too high to control with the emergency application that the helper engineer eventually made. Many bad lessons here, but starting with too much confidence in computer data?