Western Railroad Discussion > Proviso Hump is now Closed

Last car rolled down UP Proviso's hump this morning around 7am. This concludes 90+ years of humping operations, and arguably the very last manual hump. End of an era. The yard itself remains open, but is now becoming a flat switching facility, plus domestic Intermodal operationsat Global 2. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/19 15:15 by grandtrunk.

Manual hump? You mean with riders not retarders?

Manual, meaning human hands are throwing individual switches and controlling the retarders as they are rolling down the hills.

Car riders.....them were the days!

"Humping to please" ............

So this is one of those things I don't get - what principle of PSR is closing hump yards supposed to fulfill?  It seems to me that if you want to run huge mixed trains on a schedule, humping would be the fastest way to get all those random carloads assembled and increase system velocity.  However, repeatedly wherever "PSR" is rolled out, humps get closed.

Admittedly, I've never read EHH's manifesto, and I have no idea what spin UP has put on top of that, but is there a short version of the answer?

NDHolmes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So this is one of those things I don't get - what
> principle of PSR is closing hump yards supposed to
> fulfill?  It seems to me that if you want to run
> huge mixed trains on a schedule, humping would be
> the fastest way to get all those random carloads
> assembled and increase system velocity.  However,
> repeatedly wherever "PSR" is rolled out, humps get
> closed.
>
> Admittedly, I've never read EHH's manifesto, and I
> have no idea what spin UP has put on top of that,
> but is there a short version of the answer?

Switching creates car dwell. Instead of sending a car to the nearest hump to sit for a day. Cars are blocked at the local yard and picked up by the next train headed toward its destination.

In theory. . .

My grandfather was a CNW conductor out of Chicago and Proviso, this is very sad news to me.
JC

Posted from Android

the best trained and experienced crew, can't match the productivity and constancy of a properly operating hump yard. anybody who disagrees should be out on the lead on a dark. windy, rainy 30-32 degree night. as far as being expensive to operate, to any RR manager any expense, chips away from the bonus, just a lack of how to run a operation by management

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Switching creates car dwell. Instead of sending a
> car to the nearest hump to sit for a day. Cars are
> blocked at the local yard and picked up by the
> next train headed toward its destination.

Hmm. I wonderr wnen FedEx will realize how much "package dwell" accrues in Memphis.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NDHolmes Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So this is one of those things I don't get -
> what
> > principle of PSR is closing hump yards supposed
> to
> > fulfill?  It seems to me that if you want to
> run
> > huge mixed trains on a schedule, humping would
> be
> > the fastest way to get all those random
> carloads
> > assembled and increase system velocity. 
> However,
> > repeatedly wherever "PSR" is rolled out, humps
> get
> > closed.
> >
> > Admittedly, I've never read EHH's manifesto, and
> I
> > have no idea what spin UP has put on top of
> that,
> > but is there a short version of the answer?
>
> Switching creates car dwell. Instead of sending a
> car to the nearest hump to sit for a day. Cars are
> blocked at the local yard and picked up by the
> next train headed toward its destination.
>
> In theory. . .

Exactly. It is a theory. In practice, those "work events" where a big train stops to pick up and set out cars takes a lot of time to complete. This can result in relief crews and cars that don't make their destination on time.Having seen it in practice, it sort of works as long as you throw enough manpower, like a utility conductor to help out, at the problem.

The other big problem with EHH-style railroading is the amount of chutzpah, ego, petty revenge and arbitrary firings, especially experienced management, that goes with it.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Switching creates car dwell. Instead of sending a
> car to the nearest hump to sit for a day. Cars are
> blocked at the local yard and picked up by the
> next train headed toward its destination.
>
> In theory. . .

There is no reason for cars to sit a day in a hump yard or, for that matter, a flat yard. Cars sit because management chooses to schedule (uh....what they call schedule maybe) trains that way. BNSF Pasco (at least BN did - I haven't seen what BNSF does) runs cars through Pasco in 12 hours or less. GN ran trains mine run from the two ends of the line to be humped and re-assembled in block at Minot. In Chicago in the 60s-70s when I was there, virtually every yard turned traffic in 12 hours or less, whether in a flat yard (40th, Barr, Ashland) or a hump (Cicero, Proviso, Clearing, Blue Island, Gibson). If cars are delayed a day in a hump yard, it isn't because of the hump yard; it is because management either wants to do it or doesn't know how not to.

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Switching creates car dwell. Instead of sending
> a
> > car to the nearest hump to sit for a day. Cars
> are
> > blocked at the local yard and picked up by the
> > next train headed toward its destination.
> >
> > In theory. . .
>
> There is no reason for cars to sit a day in a hump
> yard or, for that matter, a flat yard. Cars sit
> because management chooses to schedule (uh....what
> they call schedule maybe) trains that way. BNSF
> Pasco (at least BN did - I haven't seen what BNSF
> does) runs cars through Pasco in 12 hours or less.
> GN ran trains mine run from the two ends of the
> line to be humped and re-assembled in block at
> Minot. In Chicago in the 60s-70s when I was there,
> virtually every yard turned traffic in 12 hours or
> less, whether in a flat yard (40th, Barr, Ashland)
> or a hump (Cicero, Proviso, Clearing, Blue Island,
> Gibson). If cars are delayed a day in a hump yard,
> it isn't because of the hump yard; it is because
> management either wants to do it or doesn't know
> how not to.
>
> TAW


The reason is (or was) there often isn't enough traffic to warrant multiple trains per day to the same destination. Some locations, sure. In Roseville's case, North Platte and formerly West Colton. Locals only run once per day, so any car that arrived after the train was built, was guaranteed up to 24 hours in the yard.

With the new PSR "plan" we are sending any excess traffic out on any train headed in the right direction. It has drastically reduced car dwell. However, if all of the scheduled traffic makes that days train, any traffic arriving after that waits until the next day. Assuming the next days train isn't over scheduled.



Exactly. It is a theory. In practice, those "work events" where a big train stops to pick up and set out cars takes a lot of time to complete. This can result in relief crews and cars that don't make their destination on time.Having seen it in practice, it sort of works as long as you throw enough manpower, like a utility conductor to help out, at the problem. 

The other big problem with EHH-style railroading is the amount of chutzpah, ego, petty revenge and arbitrary firings, especially experienced management, that goes with it.

A work event of a couple of hours is far better than a day in the yard. For car dwell, obviously not for yard and main line fluidity. At this point, the extra man power involved isn't as big of a concern as moving the traffic.

Another advantage of hump yards is the departing train should be clean, with no misroutes (if the equipment is well maintained).  The departing train will often have two or three blocks which are set off enroute, in station order. Flat switching might not leave time for correcting mistakes.

As was said previously, there are typically not enough cars to warrant a train every 12 hours, however some humps do so, or they call second sections when traffic is very heavy.

My biggest objection to PSR is that execution is based on broad principles, often overlooking important local concerns. Things like: Can the yard in question build/receive a 12,000 foot train with DPU in the middle without tying up the throat of the yard for two or three hours? Will the sidings allow passing? If the crew district is especially long, over 225 miles, will there be time for work events? Is there adequate power and men, or or we sweating the assets to extreme?

Also, if the plan isn't working, will managers be instantly fired? That often causes them to "hide" cars, as well as entire trains. This is done by leaving them in cyberspace instead of reporting accurate arrival and departure times. And, do the chief executives act like autocrats, or do they really know what is happening out there? I am reminded of the mayor from the old TV show Carter Country, who always said "Just handle it."

Lastly, the jacking up of fees and tarrifs is not sustainable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/19 13:32 by NYC6001.

Proviso is in the middle of the reported dwell times at large UP yards, as of the end of June. 25.8 hours.  Fort Worth, Houston, Roseville, West Colton are all hours longer. The others are an hour or two faster.

Maybe they're fixing a problem that isn't a problem?

https://www.stb.gov/railserviceissues.nsf/7b7a1a7001f4b5d285257c78005a09c0/3d2058d31cf549b385258425006efeaf?OpenDocument

Fixing problems that don't exist is a hallmark of PSR. Employ broad principles from EHH's playbook without regard for actual conditions.