Western Railroad Discussion > Dilemma: A utility considers dumping coal fired electric

There's an interesting article in the San Antonio Express-News about the process a utility goes about in planning for a post-coal future.  Some TrainOrders readers may disagree with the premises, but the process is illuminating.

The municipally owned utility currently derives much of its power from coal. It is currently considering buying more electricity from the wind and solar suppliers, which would cut the cost of electriity. And eliminate many good utility jobs in a city which desperately needs good jobs. The cost of shutting down the coal plants and dealing with the waste is huge.  They still have to pay off the cost of the coal plant Even if it has been shut down. But, the higher the cost of electricity becomes in San Antonio, the less attractive the city becomes for companies looking to relocate.

https://www.expressnews.com/business/columnists/tomlinson/article/Coal-plants-present-dilemma-for-power-producers-15944432.php



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/21 08:56 by Lackawanna484.

As the price of alternatives scale, the costs and retail cost of power will come down.  Texas is leading the way in going greener, to coin a term.

A good test case is going on right now in Texas about the realibilty of all forms of energy.

why break something that isn't broken?

zr1rob Wrote:
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> why break something that isn't broken?

Bcause it's breaking the planet.

reno7349 Wrote:
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> A good test case is going on right now in Texas
> about the realibilty of all forms of energy.

The distributed model (central source, with wires or pipes radiating to end users) is very dependent on the wires etc staying up and useful. Ice, hurricanes, etc can disrupt the model.

Some energy planners are modeling a hybrid model where a user still has wires, but also has their own solar / wind, and a storage battery.  Not unlike folks in Vermont, Maine, North Dakota, Alaska, etc with a wood stove and plenty of wood.  Just in case...

My "wires" are on my roof.

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

with the closure of the portland general electric coal fired electricity plant in Boardman late last year, coal trains in Oregon are part of our Oregon rail history.    Arlen

Would love to hear from the 2M folks in Texas who awoke to rolling blackouts this morning how they feel about it.
—Mac

reno7349 Wrote:
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> A good test case is going on right now in Texas
> about the realibilty of all forms of energy.

Apparently wind turbines do not work very well when they are iced and frozen....

TJY

Can’t wait to see just how much colder the earth will get once we’re done burning fossil fuels. Texas better get used to the cold. Nuclear power is the only way to prevent future blackouts, once the US heads towards 100% wind and solar. Without a back up power source blackouts will become the norm winter and summer. On a two story and higher building, there’s not enough roof surface for the solar panels to the lower units. 

Valleyman

icancmp193 Wrote:
>
> Apparently wind turbines do not work very well
> when they are iced and frozen....
>
> TJY
We don't get ice storms here in California, so wind turbines freezing up aren't a problem, however there is a problem in that when wind blows, the power gets shut off to mitigate fire risk.  

Desmond Praetzel. "4451 Puff"

icancmp193 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reno7349 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A good test case is going on right now in Texas
> > about the realibilty of all forms of energy.
>
> Apparently wind turbines do not work very well
> when they are iced and frozen....
>
> TJY
And apparently solar panels do not  work very well when they are covered with snow.
 

---

We are basically OK in San Antonio.  The rolling black outs are a PITA, but the utility HAS maintained the integrety of the grid.   And the snow will be gone from the solars by tommorrow. Recall, this is the first measurable snow since 1989.   The storm has unprecedented depth and reach.  That's why things are the waythey are-

NormSchultze Wrote:
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> We are basically OK in San Antonio.  The rolling
> black outs are a PITA, but the utility HAS
> maintained the integrety of the grid.   And the
> snow will be gone from the solars by tommorrow.
> Recall, this is the first measurable snow since
> 1989.   The storm has unprecedented depth and
> reach.  That's why things are the waythey are-

NPR has an interview this afternoon with a reporter in San Antonio.  His blackouts have ranged from 40 minutes to about two hours.  Pretty much the same thing you said. This thing happens every 20-30 years.

The "Level Three Emergency" is in part due to the limited interconnections with the power grids (eastern and western) which have sufficient power at this time. All of Texas is facing record cold weather and demands on their producing capacity.  Texas has resisted efforts over the years to export its cheap energy to companies outside their grid, understanding it would inevitably raise their favorable prices, Unfortunately, that makes importing power into Texas more difficult.

Valleyman Wrote:
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> Can’t wait to see just how much colder the earth
> will get once we’re done burning fossil fuels.
> Texas better get used to the cold. Nuclear power
> is the only way to prevent future blackouts, once
> the US heads towards 100% wind and solar. Without
> a back up power source blackouts will become the
> norm winter and summer. On a two story and higher
> building, there’s not enough roof surface for
> the solar panels to the lower units. 
>
> Valleyman

Come up with either a permanent nuclear waste storage/disposal solution or a nuclear reactor that produces no waste and you will have solved the problems with nuclear power.
Until then, good luck.

          So far they haven't proved its 'breaking the planet' .

The Lawrence Livermore Naional Laboratory produces comprehensive energy production and consumption charts for all states and many countries.

The 2018 data for Texas (the most recent year currently available) shows that solar energy accounted for 0.26% of all energy produced in the state. Wind was higher, 4.88%.

icancmp193 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> reno7349 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A good test case is going on right now in Texas
> > about the realibilty of all forms of energy.
>
> Apparently wind turbines do not work very well
> when they are iced and frozen....
>
> TJY

Actually at any temp below 20 F. The gear box lube tends to freeze then. Minnesota relies heavily on wind generators and has to buy expensive power from other states that still have traditional fueled power plants during the winter.  have be confronted with More (Definitions, Synonyms, Translation)

PHall Wrote:
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> Come up with either a permanent nuclear waste
> storage/disposal solution or a nuclear reactor
> that produces no waste and you will have solved
> the problems with nuclear power.
> Until then, good luck.

Japan had to promote "clean" coal-based power plants to deal with the shutdown of Fukushima #1 nuclear power plant, after the 2011 Earthquake and Tsunami. As you stated, nuclear waste does not scale well. Waste from unrecycled fuel have half-life measured in tens or hundreds of years, while half-life of waste from recycled fuel is measured in thousands and tens of thousands of years. Trade off for smaller volume --> half-life multiplied by factor of 10-100.

Tough choice: dirtiness of coal byproducts, or unlivable land. Japan has put on hold 5 new nuclear power plants under construction (operational start date undetermined) and cancelled 9 future projects permanently. So they made their choice.