Western Railroad Discussion > Signal question

At Tower 55 in Ft Worth I observed a yellow over flashing red signal.   What does that mean?

Approach restricting

Proceed prepared to pass next signal at restricted speed.

Yellow over lunar in many cases was (or will be) replaced by yellow over flashing red.  Trainman “trainjunkie” above is very correct, it signifies go past the NEXT signal at restricted speed because the track ahead is either dark or occupied.  The problem with yellow over lunar is that it HAD two meanings about what is ahead (past the next signal).  (1) ahead past the next signal is dark / occupied or (2) go by the next signal 25 M.P.H. of less.  At UP’s northern approach to West Colton Classification Yard yellow over lunar meant the next signal would be red over flashing red to go into the dark yard. (Because of a derailment and a CP box being wiped out, it was changed to yellow over flashing red.)  Yet, at UP’s junction at Picacho, AZ on the Sunset Route it meant to go north on the Phoenix Line, the advance Yellow over Lunar signifies the 25 M.P.H. route is lined, and that route is all signaled territory.  The powers that be saw the confusion between the two meanings and changed the yellow over lunar to yellow over flashing red IF the routing was into dark or occupied trackage.
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/21 11:06 by ABHoffmann.

ABHoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yellow over lunar in many cases was (or will be)
> replaced by yellow over flashing red.  Trainman
> “trainjunkie” above is very correct, it
> signifies go past the NEXT signal at restricted
> speed because the track ahead is either dark or
> occupied.  The problem with yellow over lunar is
> that it HAD two meanings about what is ahead (past
> the next signal).  (1) ahead past the next signal
> is dark / occupied or (2) go by the next signal 25
> M.P.H. of less.  At UP’s northern approach to
> West Colton Classification Yard yellow over lunar
> meant the next signal would be red over flashing
> red to go into the dark yard. (Because of a
> derailment and a CP box being wiped out, it was
> changed to yellow over flashing red.)  Yet, at
> UP’s junction at Picacho, AZ on the Sunset Route
> it meant to go north on the Phoenix Line, the
> advance Yellow over Lunar signifies the 25 M.P.H.
> route is lined, and that route is all signaled
> territory.  The powers that be saw the confusion
> between the two meanings and changed the yellow
> over lunar to yellow over flashing red IF the
> routing was into dark or occupied trackage.
>  


I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

The Approach Restricting signal indication doesn't change with the different aspects. 

"Proceed prepared to pass next signal at restricted speed, but not exceeding 15 MPH" is the indication.  Whether Yellow over Lunar or Yellow over Flashing Red.

I have a question...Why did many class 1 railroads replace the older (much better looking) signal bridges and searchlight signals with the "erector set" style signals?  Was it for strength?  They sure are UGLY!!!! 

Kent in CArmel Valley

portlander:
 
Nonsense?
 
The crossover switches to the Phoenix Line are TIMETABLE good for 25 M.P.H.  The westbound and eastbound interlocking signals were installed BEFORE the lower flashing red became the standard, and can display favorable red over CLEAR routes to Phoenix or Los Angeles / red over clear to El Paso.
 

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
>
> The Approach Restricting signal indication doesn't
> change with the different aspects. 

That's subjective at best.

Each railroad has its own signal indications, and even on the same railroad, some locations and subdivisions use different signal aspects than others.

It depends on the exact location the OP is referring to.

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
> >
> > The Approach Restricting signal indication
> doesn't
> > change with the different aspects. 
>
> That's subjective at best.
>
> Each railroad has its own signal indications, and
> even on the same railroad, some locations and
> subdivisions use different signal aspects than
> others.
>
> It depends on the exact location the OP is
> referring to.

And where any signal in a particular location doesn't follow the rule book....the timetable will have a section headed "signals not in conformance with operating rules" or some such....and proceed to give instructions for those oddball signals.....

Long thread on Approach Restricting indications on the Eastern forum last month for anyone interersted.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,5308980

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
> >
> > The Approach Restricting signal indication
> doesn't
> > change with the different aspects. 
>
> That's subjective at best.
>
> Each railroad has its own signal indications, and
> even on the same railroad, some locations and
> subdivisions use different signal aspects than
> others.
>
> It depends on the exact location the OP is
> referring to.

Not on the UP. There may be a timetable SSI, but it has no bearing on whether or not the  light is lunar or flashing red.

ABHoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander:
>  
> Nonsense?
>  
> The crossover switches to the Phoenix Line are
> TIMETABLE good for 25 M.P.H.  The westbound and
> eastbound interlocking signals were installed
> BEFORE the lower flashing red became the standard,
> and can display favorable red over CLEAR routes to
> Phoenix or Los Angeles / red over clear to El
> Paso.
>  

The switches could be good for 50, but if you're on an approach restricting, you're limited to 15 mph by the signal. Unless otherwise provided by rule 9.8.

Portlander:
 
You are correct IF the timetable says OR a red over flashing red (or red over lunar) is encountered.  But, in the illustrated area of Picacho, AZ, the ADVANCE yellow over lunar can be passed at 30 M.P.H. and the NEXT interlocking signal can be passed as 25 M.P.H. if red over clear is displayed, really, anything like red over yellow or above.  Anywhere, when a red over flashing red (or red over lunar) is encountered, yes, it is 15 M.P.H. unless further restricted.

 

tomstp:

Did you, as the original poster, get your answer from all the gibberish above? 


tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At Tower 55 in Ft Worth I observed a yellow over
> flashing red signal.   What does that mean?

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DevalDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > portlander Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
> > >
> > > The Approach Restricting signal indication
> > doesn't
> > > change with the different aspects. 
> >
> > That's subjective at best.
> >
> > Each railroad has its own signal indications,
> and
> > even on the same railroad, some locations and
> > subdivisions use different signal aspects than
> > others.
> >
> > It depends on the exact location the OP is
> > referring to.
>
> Not on the UP. There may be a timetable SSI, but
> it has no bearing on whether or not the  light is
> lunar or flashing red.

It may be hard to believe, but even on the UP, the exact location of the signal will have a bearing whether the light is lunar or flashing red as not all signals are capable of giving all aspects.

DynamicBrake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a question...Why did many class 1 railroads
> replace the older (much better looking) signal
> bridges and searchlight signals with the "erector
> set" style signals?  Was it for strength?  They
> sure are UGLY!!!! 
>
> Kent in CArmel Valley

There was a post several years ago, sorry i can't reference it better, about this.  It seems the older style signal bridges are not OSHA compliant.  It appears that when they change the signal heads on the signal bridges, the grandfather clause is eliminated and the railroads are required to replace or remove the older signal bridge.  I can be corrected on this, but it's what I've been able to gather from various posts over the last several years.  

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DevalDragon Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > portlander Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > The Approach Restricting signal indication
> > > doesn't
> > > > change with the different aspects. 
> > >
> > > That's subjective at best.
> > >
> > > Each railroad has its own signal indications,
> > and
> > > even on the same railroad, some locations and
> > > subdivisions use different signal aspects
> than
> > > others.
> > >
> > > It depends on the exact location the OP is
> > > referring to.
> >
> > Not on the UP. There may be a timetable SSI,
> but
> > it has no bearing on whether or not the  light
> is
> > lunar or flashing red.
>
> It may be hard to believe, but even on the UP, the
> exact location of the signal will have a bearing
> whether the light is lunar or flashing red as not
> all signals are capable of giving all aspects.

Why would that be hard to believe?

ABHoffmann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Portlander:
>  
> You are correct IF the timetable says OR a red
> over flashing red (or red over lunar) is
> encountered.  But, in the illustrated area of
> Picacho, AZ, the ADVANCE yellow over lunar can be
> passed at 30 M.P.H. and the NEXT interlocking
> signal can be passed as 25 M.P.H. if red over
> clear is displayed, really, anything like red over
> yellow or above.  Anywhere, when a red over
> flashing red (or red over lunar) is encountered,
> yes, it is 15 M.P.H. unless further restricted.
>
>  

The advance Yellow over Lunar can be passed at track speed. Unless operating on a signal more restrictive signal than clear. The next signal can also be passed at track speed (or turnout speed) if less retrictive.

Here is a copy/paste of rule 9.8 to help you in the future.

9.8: Next Governing Signal
A train may comply with the next signal's indication when its aspect can be clearly seen and the signal governs the track where movement is occurring or will be made. When the PTC display indicates the next governing signal will not require a stop, the train may proceed prepared to enter the next block complying with the signal indication governing that block. This does not apply when a rule or previous signal indication requires movement at restricted speed. 

Keep in mind, when the UP changed out the SP Signals about 10 or so years ago at Picacho, the Phoenix Sub got CTC added from CP PX979 Picacho Wye to CP PX962 Coolidge.  At this time, Entering ABS/TWC Track went away until the train passes CP PX962.  The Crossover is still 25 MPH entering the Phoenix Sub.

Jeff

SouthWest RailCams
CA, NM, CO, TX, AZ
https://SouthWestRailCams.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/21 20:16 by RailFanAZ.

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