Western Railroad Discussion > Attendance policies...

Apparently the Railroads aren't the only companies using a "points" based attendance policy. Personally I'm not convinced that its the policy that the problem, or if the REAL issue is just a lack of employees combined with mismanagement (including PSR). I never had "sick days" in the Military, where "attendance" isn't an option, yet I made it to retirement. During my USPS career, even as a part time "on-call" employee, I was required to show as scheduled or when called (with as little as "we need you NOW" notice) regardless of any "plans or family events". Use of our Union negotiated "sick days" was closely monitored both locally and by "the system" (to the point in recent years that using the mandated automated 800 number call-in became the first step in the process of using Sick Leave, and letting the office know was secondary). Even the use of personal or "Annual" leave was primarily planned in December for the foIlowing calendar year, with limitations and management's option to "request" cancellation the week prior "due to scheduling". I know many self employed that don't have ANY "sick days"; no work = no pay and closed shops hurt business. 

Quote: "If a flight attendant misses a shift due to a lack of standby space, only three missed shifts per year are allowed. After that, each missed commuter shift results in two attendance "points." Employees with 11 points are subject to termination, according to American's attendance policy."
American Airlines is closing its San Francisco crew base and asking 400 flight attendants to leave California or leave the airline (msn.com)
 

Ugh....
The fights between the airlines and the rank and file go on forever.    Back in the olden days, if u were sick, you were sick.  No questions. Then in the 90's and 2000's, when bankruptcy loomed with all the majors, they cut employees, and ppl being out sick made a difference.  There werent the amount of extra ppl around that there were in the 70's and 80's.

So the airlines tried to impose attendence rules.   Flight attendants union not as strong as the pilots, so they got screwd a bit more.  Problem for them is that they are too easily "replaceable".  Too many 20 year olds who want to be flight attendants, and dont care about working conditions.   Pilots not so easy to replace.  Lots of fights over attendance policies.   Company always trying to offer more money to put up with crappy quality of life policies.   
And it seemed to always break down to half the pilots wanting the money, and half wanting the quality of life.   

The "money" ppl kind of kill me. They have no life at home...bad marriage, hate the kids, and they just want to be out on the road as much as possible.  the extra money helps pay for everyone they've got on the side. or expensive toys to keep them occupied and out of the house.   It just makes it difficult for those of us who actually have a decent home life, and want to spend time with our loved ones. 

Im sure its the same at the RR.    When i worked on the RR, way back when, it seemed that we had more pp who cared about life than money.  But the Companies are always the same.  Theyd rather pay higher salaries, cause its predictable.   Ppl calling in sick or marking off is unpredictable, and the companies hate it.   They hate even the fact that some days need more employees around than others.  They'd rather that 25% of the workforce be parttime, and just on call and paid as needed.  LOL.    There are actually wall street types out there who are thinking "why cant we do that?"     Guess they have no life either.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/22 11:37 by pdt.

When I first started in collage back in the late 1950's, being a "business" major was sort of a label that one was not smart enough to do anything else. I had wanted to find a really broad field to study and started in "Personnel" which actually was a major. The word itself contains the root "person" meaning a whole human being with all its needs and wants.  Years go by and this title is replaced by "Human Resources" which, while it contains "human" also contains "resources" which would relate to other input resources such as materials, energy, facilities, etc., all non human commodities. In other words, it goes back to the very old term used to describe a labor force as "number of factory hands."  Basically, other than senior management, employees are just another input commodity. About the same time, the distinction between a hired professional senior management and the shareholder owners became absolutely removed, thereby  making a senior manager driven to make decisions heavily based on what would improve their value of they owned or had options on, rather than what was best for the overall health of the corporation, which was the intent of the original separation between management and owner. The result of all this gives us current corporations which have walked away from their earlier commitment to their five key components: employees, customers, community, shareholders and debt holders. Milton Friedman's call for the corporation's sole focus to be on "shareholder value" became king.

Speaking as a current railroader and prior military serviceman, I had way more time off in the military as compared to the railroad.

There is never a holiday stand down on the railroad like there is in the military, when applicable of course.

There is no “just get your work done and go home” on the railroad anymore like there is in the military.

There are no railroad balls, dances or celebrations. No railroad picnics or get togethers like there is in the military.

There is no rotating duty schedule or planned out watch bill with any sort of
predictability to it on the railroad like in the military.

There is no immediate boss or supervisior to go and talk to for a day off “just because” to handle some things for yourself or family on the railroad like in the military.

The points system is a MAJOR factor in the dysfunction of the rail industry right now, compounded by the negative ramifications of PSR.

Posted from iPhone

We used to have an attendance policy, you want to get paid then show up and work!

Out +

Texican65 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking as a current railroader and prior
> military serviceman, I had way more time off in
> the military as compared to the railroad.
>
> There is never a holiday stand down on the
> railroad like there is in the military, when
> applicable of course.
>
> There is no “just get your work done and go
> home” on the railroad anymore like there is in
> the military.
>
> There are no railroad balls, dances or
> celebrations. No railroad picnics or get togethers
> like there is in the military.
>
> There is no rotating duty schedule or planned out
> watch bill with any sort of
> predictability to it on the railroad like in the
> military.
>
> There is no immediate boss or supervisior to go
> and talk to for a day off “just because” to
> handle some things for yourself or family on the
> railroad like in the military.
>
> The points system is a MAJOR factor in the
> dysfunction of the rail industry right now,
> compounded by the negative ramifications of PSR.

I was treated more like a decent human being in the Army than I ever have been by a railroad. Better management and quality of life all the way around in the Army.

At AT&T we didn't have paid sick days but we did have five paid and one unpaid personal days off which you could take in two hour blocks if needed.
You still needed to ask for the time off two days in advance if the workload allowed. Of course you could just call in sick and either not get paid or you could retroactively use one of your personal days at your manager's discretion. If you made a habit of calling out sick more then once or twice a year a little discussion between you and your manager was sure to happen. Smart people asked for their union steward to be present at that meeting.

What has happened in the narrative of the contract negotiations is that the message has gotten totally skewed. The biggest issue going into the negotiations 3 years ago was crew consist and crew availability, paid sick leave was not even on the radar (TE&Y). Then to try and give civilians the Cliffs Notes version of what was being fought for “paid sick leave” reared its head, and the brotherhoods played it the wrong way, as usual.

If a person gets the flu or any other malady that needs a few days off to recover from we now can be assured that we will be brought up on charges and for all intents and purposes are halfway to being fired.

Do any of you like to do things with family, friends? Weddings, funerals, graduation, birthdays, holidays, spending time with the spouse or children or maybe having a hobby? Then the new availability policies ain’t for you, hope you can find a way to get a day off; good luck.

People don’t know what it’s like to have to live 30-40 years on call 24/7 days a week. The only way you aren’t is to “lay-off” sick, personal or compensated. I don’t even know the last time I actually laid off personal… years ago. Laying off sick is about the only way to get time off and now with self supporting pools that will be even more FUBAR.

People talk about the military. Do people live on call 24/7 never having set start times for 35 years in the military? And if you want to go to the doctor to have a colonoscopy are you putting your job in jeopardy In the military, I.e. courts martial ? That’s why I haven’t gone and done that, against doctors Orders. Sure hope I don’t get cancer, but then I guess I’ll maybe have an excuse to go to the doctor then.🤷‍♂️

Posted from iPhone

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We used to have an attendance policy, you want to
> get paid then show up and work!
>
> Out +
Such a novel idea. Always worked that way for me. But Uncle Sam was abit different than most employers too. Trying to explain to one of my 
"older grandsons" the why I get to sit around on the computer or go take pictures or go for a walk instead of working. He doesn't understand that I got to where I am by doing the work and finally being rewarded for all that I did oh the many years ago. He is one of the new type of people out there. Wants to be paid a high salary right from the get go. Doesn't want to hear ya have to," Oh my God", work for that. He deserves to be paid what everyone else is making. I could go on and on, but I think ya'll get the jist.  Be well, Ben

95% of younger people would think that on call and working conditions as they really exist on a railroad would be illegal.

Out 

Older people too. That’s why the whole narrative of this contract debacle was stolen by the NCCC and once again it was “The poor railroad” VS. “Lazy, shiftless, feather bedding unions”

Solidarity and regards

Posted from iPhone

Drknow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If a person gets the flu or any other malady that
> needs a few days off to recover from we now can be
> assured that we will be brought up on charges and
> for all intents and purposes are halfway to being
> fired.
>

Engine cab - dispatchers office, same effect but bigger. To taking off sick, so you show up with a respirtatory or sinus infection. Your colleague(s) leave work with a respiratory or sinus infection. Tomorrow, your colleague shows up for work and infects others, including some who just got over the last round and restarts the cycle. Been there, done that.
We had a couple of guys hauled out by ambulance and hospitalized for pneumonia. How's that for finding a way to get a day off?

You are certainly not 100% on your game with the sinus problems, ear blockage, coughing, but you are expected to be 100% at work. You find yourself doing something stupid and not realizing it. OTC medine (or even prescribed if you manage to find time for a doctor) will get you canned in a random drug test.

Drug testing - oh, they love it. Having the same effect from illness - you'd better come to work and had better not screw up because of it. Of course that doesn't even count the same effects on completely demoralized employees (I knew one who had a lot of experience, but started to not care just a little too much. One day, he dropped off the caboose and right into the engine of a train going the other way on the other track. Yeah, but it wan't drugs.).

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Drknow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > If a person gets the flu or any other malady
> that
> > needs a few days off to recover from we now can
> be
> > assured that we will be brought up on charges
> and
> > for all intents and purposes are halfway to
> being
> > fired.
> >
>
> Engine cab - dispatchers office, same effect but
> bigger. To taking off sick, so you show up with a
> respiratory or sinus infection. Your colleague(s)
> leave work with a respiratory or sinus infection.
> Tomorrow, your colleague shows up for work and
> infects others, including some who just got over
> the last round and restarts the cycle. Been there,
> done that.
> We had a couple of guys hauled out by ambulance
> and hospitalized for pneumonia. How's that for
> finding a way to get a day off?
>
> You are certainly not 100% on your game with the
> sinus problems, ear blockage, coughing, but you
> are expected to be 100% at work. You find yourself
> doing something stupid and not realizing it. OTC
> me dine (or even prescribed if you manage to find
> time for a doctor) will get you canned in a random
> drug test.
>
> Drug testing - oh, they love it. Having the same
> effect from illness - you'd better come to work
> and had better not screw up because of it. Of
> course that doesn't even count the same effects on
> completely demoralized employees (I knew one who
> had a lot of experience, but started to not care
> just a little too much. One day, he dropped off
> the caboose and right into the engine of a train
> going the other way on the other track. Yeah, but
> it wan't drugs.).
>
> TAW


Yep. About 10 or so years ago I fought a bug the whole damn month of December, Xmas time I was running a low grade fever and popping Tylenol, Advil and Aspirin like PEZ. Finally, on New Years Eve day I went to a walk in clinic and they gave me a oral antibiotic "Z" pak. 
Just like the OTC stuff=PEZ. Along about the middle of Jan. I'm checking into the AFHT hotel and I walk up to the third floor with the grips. Thought I had a gorilla on my back. Went back down to front desk and one of the daylight clerks called her personal doctor and got me in a couple hours later.  

Pneumonia in the right lung and secondary sinus infection. I got a shot in the ass and two big horse pills right in the office, and a scrip' with the orders if I didn't get better in 5 days to get to medical help ASAP. Well, it was about 7 days but I started feeling better. Did I mark off? NOOOO. I marked off on Xmas (The ONLY Holiday I mark off on) and I couldn't take any time off. I know exactly what your talking about, Tom.