Western Railroad Discussion > Clean Beautiful Coal

Coal use to be expanded by Trump Admin
hyperlink ^^^^^^^^^

so maybe the scrap line for old hoppers will be halted?

I keep seeing these carat marks in several e-mails.  What am I to understand by these marks??

I think the last two short paragraphs says it all.

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I keep seeing these carat marks in several
> e-mails.  What am I to understand by these
> marks??

Pointing above to the three words that make up the hyperlink.

On some browsers (including on my Safari iOS) the font color difference between a hyperlink and normal text is too subtle to notice without careful examination,

pbouzide Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MEKoch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I keep seeing these carat marks in several
> > e-mails.  What am I to understand by these
> > marks??
>
> Pointing above to the three words that make up the
> hyperlink.
>
> On some browsers (including on my Safari iOS) the
> font color difference between a hyperlink and
> normal text is too subtle to notice without
> careful examination,

We are puling all stored coal hoppers out of storage on CSX.....

$625 million to "expand power generation by coal?"  If they want meaningful results they need to change that to "billion."  $625 million "might" buy emissions controls on one large generating unit.  Face it guys, coal is dead.  The plants that are now burning coal may continue to do so, and changes in environmental regulations might buy them some more time, but nobody is gonna start building new coal fired generation, or bring back retired coal units.  Even the megalomaniacal Mr. Trump can't change market economics in a field as large as the power generation industry.  

Don't get me wrong, I like burning coal and make a good living doing it, but I can see the reality of the situation.

To expand coal, consumers must be willing to spend extra for electricity and subsidize coal out of their own pockets.  In West Virginia and western Virginia, they seem to be willing to do that for political reasons.  Most other areas reject that bargain (recent rejections in Ohio and Michigan).   Coal's big problem is that gas fracking, solar, and wind have all become cheaper to install and operate than coal, with costs of solar declining fast.  (Trump told the UN that China exports these technologies but doesn't use them.  He was wrong.  China is number one on the planet in using both wind and solar, with solar growing fast there.  That means China's basic operating and manufacturing costs are going down, while the administration is pushing higher costs here.)

Also, even as coal grew quickly through 2008, mostly from the West, coal employment fell steadily.  That means expanding coal will do little for employment.  The mining companies are using huge machines and exposives to replace miners with technology.  There may be short-term opportunities, as the article says, but long-term the sun up there is going to win, and the countries that use that increasingly cheaper energy are also going to be the winners.  To put it bluntly, pro-coal policies are turning over the world to China and its technology exports. I hope we notice before we get too far behind.

 

 AndyBrown wrote...
"...nobody is gonna start building new coal fired generation, or bring back retired coal units."  

pbouzide Wrote:
"We are puling all stored coal hoppers out of storage on CSX....."

Coal has a demand problem. It does not have a supply problem.

If CSX is activating stored coal sets, it has to do with two things: Southern utilities replenishing their stockpiles after a hot summer and several mines coming back online after being closed for fires and other issues that affected production.

Making electricity from coal is like running your car on premium gasoline even if the manufacturer recommends regular. Why? Coal has typically been more expensive than natural gas or renewables for the past X number of years, in much the way you pay more for premium than regular. The rational choice at the pump is to purchase regular, just as utilities are making the rational choice by purchasing nat gas and renewables over coal because they're less expensive.

That said, coal power plants should be kept in standby mode to produce electricity if needed as a backup during some emergency.

Wow isn't jwhemmer the little expert! Solar will never be a truly "cheap" source until better storage is available. Facility
in Boulder City NV just lost 2 Tesla BU units to a fire, pretty nice looking conflagration. Nothing that isn't 24 hour available
will ever be a true solution, I can't wait until some of the new generation nukes come on line and make a mockery of
the 1000s of acres of solar and the inconsistent wind generation.

Out 

In 2005 coal supplied about 50% of the US electricity demand. Today it's about 12% and falling.

Ray

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
, I can't wait until
> some of the new generation nukes come on line and
> make a mockery of
> the 1000s of acres of solar and the inconsistent
> wind generation.
>
> Out 

There are several companies now making Small Modular (Nuclear) Reactors. Designed to be built in a factory and shipped in large components to the assembly site. None have been approved for commercial use yet.

One, from OKLO Energy, has been authorized to build a prototype in Alaska, at Elmendorf AFB. I believe three other companies have been authorized to construct prototypes on military or TVA facilities.  OKLO has been a decent investment.  NuScale and NANO are others.  The reactors will be about the size of a large residential home.

To the original thread's point, I'm not aware that any public company or government agency has authorized construction of a new coal fired electrical plant, and I'm not aware of any in the Final Investment Decision stage. There are many plants which have been mothballed and could be recalled to use, and a few which are extending their use for seasonal / Summer baseload service.

Heard about batteries? Tech on them is moving faster than people know, or for that matter, care.

People are normalized to shucking out out obscene amounts of money for streaming subscriptions, data and fone services, and groceries, but a few bucks more each month for alternative energy will break them? Sigh...


callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing
> that isn't 24 hour available
> will ever be a true solution.

Posted from Android

Yes batteries are an answer to the storage problem, but when you look at some place like Las Vegas the AM and
PM power draws are very similar and in fact the PM draw might be higher. That's battery storage equal to the production
facilities of the original power. A city like Phoenix without it's nuke plant doesn't have the available real estate to cover
both solar and storage. Maybe the Southwest is a different example from where the rest of you live but we deal with 
our local realities.

Out 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/25 16:37 by callum_out.

Solar still has major issues.
[url=http://​https://www.sierradailynews.com/state/californias-failed-2-2b-ivanpah-solar-power-facility-is-shutting-down/]​https://www.sierradailynews.com/state/californias-failed-2-2b-ivanpah-solar-power-facility-is-shutting-down/[/url]
—Mac

The other elephant in that room is the fact that if Vegas moves a secondary airport to Primm that mentioned
plant is right in the glide path and the created light from the tower could be a major issue to airline flights.
The article mentions 75%, the facility has rarely exceeded 45%.

Out 

It hasn't been mentioned but the Bill Gates Terra Power project at Kemmerer WY is well
under way and should produce somewhere around 350 megawatts. This is one of the first
small reactor projects (commercial) to reach this level of construction.

Out 

MP403 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Coal has a demand problem. It does not have a
> supply problem.
>
> If CSX is activating stored coal sets, it has to
> do with two things: Southern utilities
> replenishing their stockpiles after a hot summer
> and several mines coming back online after being
> closed for fires and other issues that affected
> production.
>
> Making electricity from coal is like running your
> car on premium gasoline even if the manufacturer
> recommends regular. Why? Coal has typically been
> more expensive than natural gas or renewables for
> the past X number of years, in much the way you
> pay more for premium than regular. The rational
> choice at the pump is to purchase regular, just as
> utilities are making the rational choice by
> purchasing nat gas and renewables over coal
> because they're less expensive.
>
> That said, coal power plants should be kept in
> standby mode to produce electricity if needed as a
> backup during some emergency.

Coal power plants should not be kept on standby IF they meet emissions standards and are not "aged out". Many coal powered plants in the south are not close to being "aged out" yet.


Keith_Kevet

Posted from Android

Coal is an expensive fuel when compared to natural gas for electric generation. That is a political problem if utilities purchase expensive coal power in place of cheaper nat gas power.

Kentucky faced that problem a decade ago when AEP tried to close coal fired Big Sandy electric plant.

People went nuts. Our coal heritage, etc. AEP offered to keep it open if KY rate payers shouldered the incremental cost of coal.

No dice. The plant is now fired by natural gas.

Posted from Android

Ray_Murphy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In 2005 coal supplied about 50% of the US
> electricity demand. Today it's about 12% and
> falling.
>
> Ray

My random research on this topic came up with similar numbers for U.S.

In Japan, natural gas generates 32.9% of their electricity, and coal 28.5%. Not as lopsided as 50% --> 12%. After 2011, they've been embarking on building new coal power plants that burn cleaner.

And they are trying to extend the life of current nuclear power plants, even after 2011 ("Fukushima").

If American consumers want to truly win the "War on Coal" then fix your bad habits, especially habits that encourage more power-wasting data centers to be built. Can't do that? Then coal will return. All the arguing is useless otherwise (eating popcorn).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/25 17:56 by cchan006.