Western Railroad Discussion > NS has less UP runthrus via Chicago?

The only manifest runthru I could find was 39E Elkhart-Proviso.  Conrail used to have several runthru trains between North Platte,
Proviso and Elkhart and even ran NPSE, which regularly brought UP power into Selkirk.  I thnk there was even an NPPI to Conway. How can NS/UP claim that a
merger will improve service over what CR used to do with UP?  Also CR used to have several runthrus to/from Little Rock
via East St Louis or Salem to/from Avon.  The only runthru I could find from Decatur (NS did not get Avon) was 115,
which carries Kansas City-BNSF manifest.
I question whether NS merging with UP will anything that can't be fixed by well coordinated runthru service.
Andy

twropr Wrote:
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>
> I question whether NS merging with UP will
> anything that can't be fixed by well coordinated
> runthru service.
> Andy

Better service is just the smoke screen.  Prior large mergers have not produced much in the way of serious improvements for most customers. They could have done run-thrus 30 years ago, and they did. 

The  point of this merger is to make money for the investment banks who arranged the merger, the law firms who provided fairness opinions on the price and terms, and the share owners and execs at NS who will be bought out. The expense of the ballroom contribution etc is just a cost of getting the approval done in the swamp

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only manifest runthru I could find was 39E
> Elkhart-Proviso.  Conrail used to have several
> runthru trains between North Platte,
> Proviso and Elkhart and even ran NPSE, which
> regularly brought UP power into Selkirk.  I thnk
> there was even an NPPI to Conway. How can NS/UP
> claim that a
> merger will improve service over what CR used to
> do with UP?  Also CR used to have several
> runthrus to/from Little Rock
> via East St Louis or Salem to/from Avon.  The
> only runthru I could find from Decatur (NS did not
> get Avon) was 115,
> which carries Kansas City-BNSF manifest.
> I question whether NS merging with UP will
> anything that can't be fixed by well coordinated
> runthru service.
> Andy

Simple answer. The BOD of each railroad want the merger, so it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. If you write a letter to them describing the above they're laugh and throw it in the trash can.

Keith_Kevet

Posted from Android

You are correct: UP and Conrail did operate run-through manifest trains between North Platte and Selkirk and North Plate and Conway. Two things happened since: The Conrail split divided traffic between NS and CSX, which meant less density when UP suddenly began interchanging with two Eastern railroads in former Conrail territory rather than just one (Conrail). The massive loss of carload traffic in the East since the Conrail split further eroded density. Another factor is longer trains. If NPSE operated at, say, 4,000 feet, that was fine back in the day. Today it's just one block in a 12,000-foot monster train. My two cents.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> twropr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >

> Better service is just the smoke screen.  Prior
> large mergers have not produced much in the way of
> serious improvements for most customers. They
> could have done run-thrus 30 years ago, and they
> did. 
>
> The  point of this merger is to make money for
> the investment banks who arranged the merger, the
> law firms who provided fairness opinions on the
> price and terms, and the share owners and execs at
> NS who will be bought out. The expense of the
> ballroom contribution etc is just a cost of
> getting the approval done in the swamp  

The Union Pacific takeover( whoops i mean merger) also includes the additional cost  of running Big Boy to the east coast. Am i the only one who has mixed feeling about loving to see this steam engine running nation wide but knowing its a PR stint promoting an ill advised merger that will further degrade our nations railroad network?

What was the Railway Age banner? "Trust but verify"? Maybe the  STB will finally get tired
of being fooled.

Out 

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I question whether NS merging with UP will
> anything that can't be fixed by well coordinated
> runthru service.

It seems many on TO have already given up asking your question due to the "inevitability" of the merger from politics/bribery that have already taken place.

No one has openly considered potential anti-trust practices being readied by the future management team, where run throughs by competitors (BNSF, CSX) will be sabotaged to make the merger look good. These days, it'd be easier to do this because railroads can get away with moving stock prices, not goods. Don't forget the 700 mile detours and crew start data manipulations about 6 years ago - they already know how to do this. 

I 1987 MK had me ride NJ Transit 4136 (GP40FH-2) from Boise to Kearney NJ. Delivery requirements meant it had to be on the property no later than midnight 12/31/1987.

After running it under its own power to Napa, it was placed on a Hinkle, OR to North Platte personable. Part of that train made up NPSE. At North Platte we were placed on NPSE. At Blue Island the CNW/UP power came off and a block was added. PXSE departed Blue Island late on the afternoon of 12/26/1987 with two Conrail SD40's and an SD40-2. (Somewhere here on Trainorders there are pictures of our departure). PXSE arrived in Selkirk about 4pm on 12/27/1987 having run intact from Blue Island.

As far as I could see, car that originated in Hinkle on 12/22 were in Selkirk on 12/27.

Posted from Android

Keith_Kevet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Simple answer. The BOD of each railroad want the
> merger, so it doesn't matter what anybody else
> thinks. If you write a letter to them describing
> the above they're laugh and throw it in the trash
> can.

Love the comment.

CEOs that might have had the credibility to oppose it are out of the way. The anti-PSR Matt Rose and Alan Shaw (<--- and people are still naive believing that it was a "real" scandal)

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keith_Kevet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Simple answer. The BOD of each railroad want
> the
> > merger, so it doesn't matter what anybody else
> > thinks. If you write a letter to them
> describing
> > the above they're laugh and throw it in the
> trash
> > can.
>
> Love the comment.
>
> CEOs that might have had the credibility to oppose
> it are out of the way. The anti-PSR Matt Rose and
> Alan Shaw (<--- and people are still naive
> believing that it was a "real" scandal)

And every day, month and year that passes the number of real railroaders from the C-suite men down to the switchman in the yards, that knew how to move freight, gets smaller and smaller. Everyday the basic business of moving freight gets farther and farther lost in the flurry of OR numbers, streamlining, lawyers and self imposed detrimental practices.

“If it wasn’t for these pesky customers and overpaid employees, this would be a great place to run a railroad.”

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Better service is just the smoke screen.  Prior
> large mergers have not produced much in the way of
> serious improvements for most customers. They
> could have done run-thrus 30 years ago, and they
> did. 
>
Certainly. Here is a CNW-Erie run through at B&OCT Western Avenue Tower in 1967.

TAW

---

Off-pending Wrote:
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> “If it wasn’t for these pesky customers and
> overpaid employees, this would be a great place to
> run a railroad.”

The very "overpaid" employees who understand and do their best to move real goods are the reason why incompetent and malicious Ratio Parasites "thrive." My reminder that because you guys do a great job, Wall St. and their puppets (the new C-suite "whiz kids")  can suck your blood.

From my personal experience and observations, and secondhand info from firsthand discussions with railroaders, I see no solutions. The only thing the parasites want is obedience and compliance. They are using increasingly oppressive methods to extract that out of us, not caring whether the railroad industry* collapses or not. Tough to convince some of you how bad it is, but let's just say I've seen things unmentionable here - let's hope others are spared of that trauma.

* I'm not a railroader, but the cancer is spreading in other industries.

The "Cancer" has already metastasized. If you think it's bad in railroading, you should work in Health Care where MBAs and jerks from the insurance industry try to amortize YOUR LIFE out. It's BEYOND disgusting...and it will encompass EVERYONE.

gandydancer4 Wrote:
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> The "Cancer" has already metastasized. If you
> think it's bad in railroading, you should work in
> Health Care where MBAs and jerks from the
> insurance industry try to amortize YOUR LIFE out.
> It's BEYOND disgusting...and it will encompass
> EVERYONE.

The feds have pretty much abandoned medical oversight in recent years. Hospitals are closing, Medicaid is being gutted. Antitrust is a joke.

Posted from Android

Recent runthroughs for BNSF-NS:  Z-LACNYC1. Z-LACNYC2, Q-NYCLAC6, Z-LACNSA8, Q-LACNSA6, Q-BARNSA6 
Gone are Q-LACAUG6/Q-AUGLAC6, Z-SBDAUG8 and Q-SBDAUG6.

BNSF-CSX runthroughs: Z-LACNWH8, Q-LACNWH6, Z-LACATG6/Z-ATGLAC8 and Q-LACATG6/Q-ATGLAC6 and 7, also Q-ATGSCO6 and Q-NWHSCO6.  Z-SBDATG8/Z-ATGSBD8, Q-STOATG6.  Q-PHXATG1 seems to be an on-and-off symbol, when they accumulate enough traffic (woudn't want to hurt the OR).

Andrew might have time to compile the UP runthroughs.

mapboy

mapboy Wrote:
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> Recent runthroughs for BNSF-NS:  Z-LACNYC1.
> Z-LACNYC2, Q-NYCLAC6, Z-LACNSA8, Q-LACNSA6,
> Q-BARNSA6 
> Gone are Q-LACAUG6/Q-AUGLAC6, Z-SBDAUG8 and
> Q-SBDAUG6.
>
> BNSF-CSX runthroughs: Z-LACNWH8, Q-LACNWH6,
> Z-LACATG6/Z-ATGLAC8 and Q-LACATG6/Q-ATGLAC6 and 7,
> also Q-ATGSCO6 and Q-NWHSCO6.
>  Z-SBDATG8/Z-ATGSBD8, Q-STOATG6.  Q-PHXATG1
> seems to be an on-and-off symbol, when they
> accumulate enough traffic (woudn't want to hurt
> the OR).
>
> Andrew might have time to compile the UP
> runthroughs.
>
> mapboy

mapboy, any idea how much time these run-thru trains take in Chicago, North Baltimore Elkhart etc to make the switch?  

Is this like the old days, where 15 minutes after arrival the train has been inspected and fueled, a new FRED initialized, new crew boarded, and the train leaves?  Or like the more recent times where the train could sit for 12 hours waiting on a rested crew

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Is this like the old days, where 15 minutes after
> arrival the train has been inspected and fueled, a
> new FRED initialized, new crew boarded, and the
> train leaves?  Or like the more recent times
> where the train could sit for 12 hours waiting on
> a rested crew

In 2000, I was part of a project that would become CREATE. Transit time across Chicago had become 96 hours. They wanted to reduce it to 48.

In 1967-72, I participated in 12-24 transit time through the city.. That's for carload traffic, not runthrough trains. CNW had a runthrough to the Erie (yeah . .. EL. It was Erie to rails in Chicago). That was it. Everything else was disassembled, transferred, reassembled, and run. Pigs were generally rubber transferred because of clearance restrictions.

Experts in 2000 assured me that I was embellishing. It never happened.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2130497,2130497#msg-2130497

TAW

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mapboy, any idea how much time these run-thru
> trains take in Chicago, North Baltimore Elkhart
> etc to make the switch?  
>
> Is this like the old days, where 15 minutes after
> arrival the train has been inspected and fueled, a
> new FRED initialized, new crew boarded, and the
> train leaves?  Or like the more recent times
> where the train could sit for 12 hours waiting on
> a rested crew

I've never followed one of these in Chicago, or noted their times past railcams.  Fort Madison or Galesburg and Porter Jct./Chesterton would give an idea.  Following a Z1 or Z2 wouldn't take much time, should be a quick crew change for them.

mapboy

Thanks!

Posted from Android