Steam & Excursion > About diesels leading steam, chasers and such...

Just heard a few disparaging things from chasers about some of the NRHS excursions last week, particularly about our Thursday "Pocono Express" train. For an example of this check out the comments on photo 329386 over at railpictures.net I wanted to clear a few things up and paraphrase a post of mine from elsewhere:

For those who didn't get the shot you wanted, I'm sorry. It wasn't a plot against you, if only we had such time to spare. We (the DL) don't like to run the older ALCo's behind the steam engines because of the amount of air (and therefore cinders) they suck in. I think even the Western Maryland (?) had a bulletin issued to this effect for helpers back in the day. Our train was heavier than the 3254 could do solo.

Plus passengers in the open window coaches seemed to be able to enjoy hearing the steam engine work coming back after hearing the three 244 engines on the way out. I didn't hear any complaints from them.

I would have loved to sold excursion tickets to the general public, but that wasn't in the cards. We could have sold out a few more cars on at least 2 of our trips, but several Steamtown cars were undergoing a conversion to steam heat and other work and were unavailable. Perhaps it was the fact that we fought to keep prices reasonable, took to the internet in force or just that we offered some really neat stuff, in the end we sold out every major trip months in advance, a catastrophic success you might say.

As for the chasers... Most everyone chases. I'm pretty sure everyone reading this has. I have chased from time to time (though I usually made a contribution though a ticket purchase or donation). I've chased Strasburg, New Hope and the R&N, but I've also purchased tickets and ridden their trips. A lot of chasers (I'd dare say a majority) don't do that. Chasing doesn't make you a despicable person (although a lot of despicable people chase). If you chase, you really don't have any right to ask, demand, expect or complain. It's a free country, take your shots, but don't expect us to expend resources on helping you.

As for chaser packages and such. For trips operating over class one and regional railroads, this is not a good idea for several reasons. First, it invites trespassing making future operations more difficult. Care to have me tell you about some of the stuff I saw last week? Perhaps people climbing on revenue freight equipment? Walking between cars during switching movements? Having a near fist fight with train crews who ask you to keep a safe distance? Cursing at railroad employees for getting in their pictures/video? I don't care if that's a minority of chasers, it's guilt by association. After last week I'd be very surprised if some of our partners ever let us do anything like this again! My favorite was the guy on Thursday who parked his silver Mustang VERY close to the tracks, who then yelled at us for having him move it so the water truck could reach the 3254. Or the several other chasers who said we should have put up a "No Parking" sign there, on our access road, along our right of way.

A second reason is liability. It's not even the railfans suing us or suing the operating carriers I'm worried about the most. It's the guy driving and videotaping who hits the car in front of him that concerns me. With some of the driving and other behavior I've seen out there, giving maps and schedules to some chasers is like giving a loaded gun to a four year old. How about the chasers who flip the finger to people on their way home from church or the grocery store? Sure, I REALLY want them wearing our convention logo tee or hat "supporting" the event.

In the end, I'd like to think we offered a quality product to the people who paid to the ride. It's unfortunate that the "lunatic fringe" has, and I know this to be a fact, lessened the chances of similar events here in the future.

I would not change a thing we did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/10 07:11 by Bridge60.

---

Very well said. It's unfortunate that more don't contribute something while chasing. And if you don't like the way the train looks, don't chase.

What I found to be funny about Thursday's trip, is that during the runby stop at Tobyhanna, one of the committee members who was setting up the tape (to rope the area off from these said chasers), told the people who paid to ride the train to line up in front of the chasers. The reaction from some of the chasers was priceless, almost as if they were thinking "Did he actually just do that to us?"

I had an encounter with a pair of fellows from Massachusetts over the course of the week, with my first real encounter being in Honesdale for the Stourbridge Line trip. This guy came with no maps, no schedules, and no IDEA as to where he wanted to go and what he wanted to go. He INSISTED on asking me where all the locations were and such. After seeing him a few more times, he said something along the lines of "I was just asking for some help, that's all." I smartly remarked to him "Would you ever take a test without studying or doing your homework first?!"

I will side with Dave that I saw quite the crowd over the week, and at somepoints made me wonder if railfanning is what I really wanna do forever. Of course I'll chase trains 'til the earth explodes but like Dave does, I make an effort to support and promote these railroad operations. If I can help a train crew out in anyway also, I will do so. A big round of applause should be given to the convention committee; they had a lot to deal with over the week and they pulled off a fantastic event. I'm proud to say I worked for and with them.

Adam

Can't wait to see your video. I know the order form is up on our site and Facebook. It was a pleasure working with you. As I've said many times, I've met the best and the worst that us humans have to offer in this business. Enjoy what you can and you'll get some lifelong friends out of the deal.

Dave

Last summer I recall there was a chaser following the 4449 and they either killed or injured by simply driving to fast as 4449 steamed toward Whitefish.

We as railfans need to promote operation lifesaver again. Another incident last summer a week before train festival in Michigan a driver went around another car and tried to cross the road only to get hit by an Amtrak train at full speed. You could actually see the car on the front of the engine. The train shortly came to a halt. Complete stupidity.

People in general need to slow down and need to practice safe driving. If they deliberately try doing stuff like this with these freak unnecessary car train accidents, What is our society coming too? This is one of the reasons why if someone is tailgating me I will put my breaks on to freak them out or slow down enough to let them pass me so they can tailgate someone else.

To put this into perspective It might be a good thing that Norfolk Southern is starting out with the smaller engines that operate at 40-45mph because people wont be chasing the train at fast speeds. They will have to stop and wait if they want to follow the train. Those people are wasting their gas to. What if an engine like the 611 was running at regular track speed of 70mph and some arrogant driver did exactly the same thing as what happened in Michigan with the Amtrak train.

Safety is always more important than chasing trains.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/10 09:20 by mike15224449.

The real problem is there are some very immature and self-centered people out there (usually in combination), and probably more than we realize. Sadly, you can't reason with the unreasonable, especially when they are in their own little world.

I was up chasing the Saturday train & i have no gripes with the configuration of the train
My gripe is with people who think all chasers are freeloaders
I contribute more time & money to the events I attend then most of the people who paid a couple bills to ride it that day
I left the NRHS a few years ago when one of the officers was rude & disrespectful to me
They will never get another penny from me but other railroads & there events get plenty !
Burn on that!

Just to clarify...

I've got no problem with people chasing (responsibly) and I sure do enjoy seeing the photos I couldn;t get of the trains I was working.

Dave Crosby

PS, I'll probably shoot the Lehigh Gorge Scenic w 425 this weekend!

Dave, it sounds like you put on quite a show back there. I am getting a little tired of some of our "colleagues" actions, too. BTW, it was great to meet you in May at Sumpter Valley.

The people who make the donations and are supporting our railroad heritage I understand. The ones who don't ever ride or support the organizations are the people who need to take a step forward like the rest of us. Not everything shall be perfect though.

About that Amtrak accident in Michigan the driver and all three passengers were killed because of one persons actions. What a shame.

Dave -

I wasn't able to go to Scranton because of other commitments. But from my perspective on the outside looking in, you did everything - everything - right. Including your response to the chasers - I too chase sometimes, but I think you were entirely within your rights to put the photo line of paying patrons in front of the non-paying chasers. If they don't like it, they should have bought a ticket.

Beyond that, I think the Steam Railroading Institute's close relationship with the Michigan State Police is an excellent way to handle the chaser issue.

For those who didn't get the shot you wanted, I'm sorry. It wasn't a plot against you, if only we had such time to spare. We (the DL) don't like to run the older ALCo's behind the steam engines because of the amount of air (and therefore cinders) they suck in. I think even the Western Maryland (?) had a bulletin issued to this effect for helpers back in the day. Our train was heavier than the 3254 could do solo.

This was the SOP procedure on many railroads (LV, CNJ, DL&W come to mind) back in the day of steam/diesel transition. Probably also in maintenance recommendations from EMD and Alco. Cinders and diesel air intakes are just a bad combination.

pennsy3750 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (snip)
>
> Beyond that, I think the Steam Railroading
> Institute's close relationship with the Michigan
> State Police is an excellent way to handle the
> chaser issue.

It's also a very responsible way to protect the 99% of people in the service area who are just going about their business. And, wouldn't appreciate being hit by somebody driving with their knees while doing video out the side window. Or standing in the bed of a pickup truck, or shooting from the sunroof, passing 20 cars in a chase line, etc.

The NYS&W had a good working relationship with the local police departments in NJ when they did their special runs. Kept many things on a civil plane, and provided a few bucks for local traffic courts.