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Steam & Excursion > Last operations of SP 2472 at NCRY 3-28-29 & 5/23/15


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Date: 03/17/15 22:20
Last operations of SP 2472 at NCRY 3-28-29 & 5/23/15
Author: weather

With the operating agreement between GGRM and Pacific Locomotive expiring, the future operation of Ex-SP P-8 #2472 is in limbo, however, it is scheduled to run the final weekend of March on the Niles Canyon Railway. Here is all the information, fares,class and types of service, reservations, and ticket information at : http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=476f3b9c3b93861b0938e9ff4&id=82e6d98f7e&e=d733994ae5
Photos by Mike Pechner, GGRM member Copyright 2015, "All Rights Reserved."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/15 09:45 by weather.








Date: 03/17/15 22:46
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Boiler_Wash

Doesn't it operate in May too?

http://ggrm.org/events_view.aspx?eventid=1128



Date: 03/18/15 09:01
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: g-spotter

PLA, and/or GGRM are making a mistake on this one. 2472 is a greater draw than it is a liability to that operation. Yeah, "Brightside Works" have some cool projects, but 2472 gives their operation the railroading "bite" that PLA's own collection lacks. Logging steam is their water boiling passion. They are cute little engines, to be sure, BUT, here should be some SP steam on that SP line. Since 2467 seems to now be a permanent Sacramento resident, and 1269 remains in the pumpkin patch--unloved, the 72 seems a natural--and it runs. This is really too bad. These steam operations really need to pull together if all this restoration effort is to be telegraphed into the future. Its not like the stem expertise springs from the well, eternal. So.... Where exactly is 2472 going to to be evicted/ moved to? If they don't find a place will they call in the scrappers?

What I do know is that the GGRM people are some of the best preservation folks I have had the pleasure to interact with. I sincerely hope they can find a new home to stretch the 72's legs. Maybe they could finagle their way onto Mococco line and part of Tracy yard! Contract with the wine Train? Establish a museum along the NWP? Wouldn't that be a hoot! (dreaming here) Strange things do happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/15 09:11 by g-spotter.



Date: 03/18/15 11:46
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: dante

It would be great to get them back on the peninsula. Caltrain used to let them pull excursions. If CTRC ever got their act together, that could be another option.



Date: 03/18/15 12:41
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: wabash2800

If 2472 could make appearances on the Napa Valley Wine Train I would make a special trip. But I guess the Wine Train doesn't need it, because it's a sell out anyway. But still...

Perhaps the wine growers would make a stink about the smoke like they did when the operations first started?

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Date: 03/18/15 14:08
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Txhighballer

Is Napa Valley connected to the outside world?



Date: 03/18/15 14:18
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: CPR_4000

That first photo is like stepping back into time: SP engine, SP cars, SP station . . . wow.



Date: 03/18/15 15:14
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: weather

Napa Valley (Wine Train) Railroad connects with the CFNR at Lombard. They have a connection to the outside world. The 2472 DOES NOT smoke and only on cold days, emits steam.



Date: 03/18/15 16:07
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Margaret_SP_fan

I second what Mike said about the 2472
not making smoke. It is a point of pride
with us to run her as the SP did: with a
slight brownish haze above the stack,
which shows proper combustion of the
oil she burns. (A completely clear stack
means she may not be burning hot enough.)

All that black smoke (the "burning of
Rome" effect) that so many railfans love
was begun a very long time ago when movie
film and cameras were very, very expensive.
To please the onlookers and to allow them to
show motion in their still photos, the crew would,
therefore, overfire the locomotive (put more
fuel into the firebox than she could burn in
a given period of time) which would make her
emit lots of black smoke, which would trail
back over the locomotive when she was moving.

IMO, that has mis-educated the public into
thinking that all steam locomotives always
make thick clouds of black smoke every time
they run. This will hurt and has already hurt
operations. And has been going on for so very
long that I think trying to convince people that
a properly-fired steam locomotive rarely smokes
(except when her flues are being sanded) is a lost
cause.

Heck -- the general public cannot even tell diesels
and steam locomotive apart, and is thus convinced
that ALL locomotives are "dirty" -- even diesels.

When it is cold enough, a steam locomotive will
make big, billowing clouds of white condensing
steam from her stack. Now THAT is beautiful!
(And proper.)

Margaret



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/15 16:47 by Margaret_SP_fan.



Date: 03/18/15 19:18
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: MJV1988

Well I meant to buy tickets for the Sat. 3pm trip first class but somehow accidentally got tickets for the Sun. 11am trip first class instead. I contacted them asking if I could switch but that may be a long shot. Anyway I'm looking very much forward to it. I can't remember the last time I rode behind a steamer (had to be either D&S when I was a kid or maybe IRM 10-12 years ago). I've never seen the 2472 in person either so it'll be nice to see one of the VERY FEW OPERABLE big steam engines in CA still. Ironically I just saw 2467 & 2479 about 2 months ago and it (2479) still has a long way to go.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/18/15 21:09
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: MarkMeoff

Last I heard, GGRM is moving to Tracy. At least that's what source on the BOD for the GGRM said.

City Of Tracy wants to build a railroad museum called Train World Tracy or something like that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/15 21:19 by MarkMeoff.



Date: 03/18/15 22:46
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: weather

Thanks Margret for your fine explanation of steam smoke. For those who may have not heard of Margret (SP Fan) she worked on the engine when it was at the San Mateo County Fairgrounds and played a big part in the restoration of the engine. She spent many hours as I did, flat on our backs, in heat and cold, grinding and chipping the INSIDE of the boiler removing tones of rust and grime that had accumulated over the years. Margret spent countless hours working on the 2472 and did the same for Doyle and the #4449 washing her and shinning the rods.



Date: 03/18/15 22:50
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: CarolVoss

weather Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Margret for your fine explanation of steam
> smoke. For those who may have not heard of Margret
> (SP Fan) she worked on the engine when it was at
> the San Mateo County Fairgrounds and played a big
> part in the restoration of the engine. She spent
> many hours as I did, flat on our backs, in heat
> and cold, grinding and chipping the INSIDE of the
> boiler removing tones of rust and grime that had
> accumulated over the years. Margret spent
> countless hours working on the 2472 and did the
> same for Doyle and the #4449 washing her and
> shinning the rods.

Thanks for recognizing all Margaret has done, Mike---
C

Carol Voss
Salinas, CA



Date: 03/18/15 23:32
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Evan_Werkema

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:

> I think trying to convince people that
> a properly-fired steam locomotive rarely smokes
> (except when her flues are being sanded) is a
> lost cause.

Is there a way to tell when smoke is the result of flues being sanded? The photo below of 2472 on a Santa Train at Millbrae, CA in December 1995 is the only time I've caught her really smoking heavily.




Date: 03/19/15 02:06
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Margaret_SP_fan

Mike and Carol ---
Thanks SO much for the very kind words.
I really appreciate them! Nope -- I did not
at all mind getting dirty in a good cause,
and it was my pleasure to help in whatever
way I could. (Not bad for a housewife with
a degree in music, eh wot? :) )

I credit the SP 4449 and the Freedom Train
for my getting involved with the 2472. I had
fallen in love with the SP 4449 (who wouldn't?)
during her Freedom Train days, and I really,
really wanted to work on her, but she was
almost 700 miles too far away. One day in
1979, I was in the San Mateo County Fairgrounds
(Why? I cannot remember, as very little of
what went on there was of any interest to me).
But -- there was the SP 2472, with a sign on the
fence around her, saying, "THIS LOCOMOTIVE
UNDERGOING COSMETIC RESTORATION. CALL
XXX-XXXX FOR MORE INFORMATION." Well --
the rest, as they say, is history.

I made strong friendships back then that have
lasted for decades. "Project 2472" was a very
nice bunch of guys, and we had a lot of fun
working on the 2472 -- "the old girl".

Evan ---
LOL! Man, is THAT EVER some smoke you could
just about walk on! Ya got me! Yes, she does
smoke when her flues are being sanded, and no,
I myself do not know how to tell the difference
between smoke from sanding her flues and smoke
caused by putting too much oil in her firebox. About
the only way you could tell the difference is if you
are close enough to feel the sand in the smoke that
comes out when her flues are being sanded. You
would never feel the stinging and pinpricks of all that
sand if the smoke is only soot and done for
photographers. But, as I said, you'd have to be close
enough to her to feel the sand from the sanding.
There is enough of it to feel, I can tell ya!

Evan ---
Your photo is of the 2472 pulling the Shoppers
Special was on Dec. 16, 1994, not 1995. Yes, she
did pull several "Toys for Tots" Christmas Specials,
but those were always at night -- or late in the day,
and she always had a wreath on her smokebox --
which is not there in your photo, and those "Toys
for Tots trains were always the first weekend of
December, not the middle of the month. So -- I
politely suggest that your date was in error: it
was really 1994, not 1995. (That was the day
after she pulled Train #74 to San Jose from SF --
the very first time a steam locomotive had pulled
a regularly scheduled commute train on the SF
Peninsula since the en d of steam on the SP.)

That is, in spite of the black smoke -- a very
nice photo of the old girl. Thanks so much for
posting it, and your pointed reply to Mike;s
statement about the 2472 never making any
smoke. Ya got us!

Margaret

EDIT: Please read my reply to Evan below. I even
got the date of the 1994 Shoppers' Special wrong --
it was Dec. 17. I am still puzzled about the reason
for this Dec. 16, 1995, trip, as I don't remember it.
So much for the '72 not making smoke! I stand
corrected!

More info from knowledgeable folks would be
appreciated by lil' ol' me. TIA!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/15 13:12 by Margaret_SP_fan.



Date: 03/19/15 04:59
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: flash34

That picture there is likely NOT a result of sanding. It's usually done when working hard, as that creates the strong draft needed to draw the sand forcefully through the tubes and flues. This picture shows the engine working a pretty light throttle, because the smoke is basically laying right back instead of being forced straight up first. Every engine and crew will have this happen at least occasionally, maybe when the engineer cuts his throttle down some without warning the fireman, or the fireman simply wasn't paying attention for a few seconds.



Date: 03/19/15 05:59
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: LoggerHogger

Given the fact that she is rolling into the Milbrea station, it is most likely the engineer simply shut the throttle off suddenly and applied the brakes without giving the fireman enough warning. That would cause exactly the lack sudden lack of draft and the resulting billowing smoke that we see here.

Martin



Date: 03/19/15 07:45
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Evan_Werkema

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:

> Evan ---
> Your photo is of the 2472 pulling the Shoppers
> Special was on Dec. 16, 1994, not 1995.

On December 16, 1994, I was in Cleveland, OH taking some very uninspired cloudy day roster shots of a couple of retired Conrail GP35's at the Collinwood Shops. I didn't move to California until May 1995, just in time to get 2472 on the Gilroy Garlic trains. The December 16, 1995 Santa Train I photographed above is the one described by Adrian Brandt in this old post on Usenet's misc.transport.rail.americas newsgroup:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.transport.rail.americas/JH9LeAuKzbM/qvOds9ba8aoJ

LoggerHogger wrote:

> Given the fact that she is rolling into the Milbrea
> station, it is most likely the engineer simply shut
> the throttle off suddenly and applied the brakes without
> giving the fireman enough warning. That would cause
> exactly the lack sudden lack of draft and the resulting
> billowing smoke that we see here.

The train in my picture blew through Millbrae at track speed without stopping. I didn't have a video camera yet, but I do have audio recordings.



Date: 03/19/15 13:06
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Margaret_SP_fan

Evan ---
Thank you VERY much for the correction!
You are right -- and that is what happens
when I post too late at night without
double-checking my facts. I apologize.

For sure that was not a Toys for Tots train,
as those trains were and are always run the
first weekend i December. And if it was a
Shoppers' Special, it would have left SF RR
eastbound (southbound), and would not
have waited til late in the afternoon -- as
the shadows seem to indicate.

I remember the 2472 always had a wreath
on her smokebox for the Toys for Tots trains,
but not for the Shoppers' Specials. I am quite
puzzled at why she left so late in the afternoon.

That is, in any case, a GREAT photo -- in spite
of all that smoke (she needed to sand her flues
that soon after leaving SF?). She is one VERY
impressive locomotive, isn't she?

To anyone who knows: What was the occasion
for that run? I cannot now remember.

And yes, 1995 was the one and only year she
pulled the Gilroy Garlic Express - the very last
weekend in July. But that is a story for another
thread. :)



Date: 03/19/15 13:12
Re: Last operation of SP 2472 at Niles Canyon RY 3-28-2
Author: Jim700

Margaret_SP_fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When it is cold enough, a steam locomotive will
> make big, billowing clouds of white condensing
> steam from her stack. Now THAT is beautiful!
> (And proper.)
>
> Margaret

It sure is, Margaret; much better than billowing clouds of unburned fuel. Perhaps as illustrated in this cropped Steve Eshom photo where my fireman Terry Thompson is providing a beautiful picture?




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