Steam & Excursion > Have they been doing blow downs on 844?

Did he learn his lesson with all that Mud?

Posted from Android

Look at these photos. Is he finally doing a blowdown?

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,4274850

Let's sure hope so. If the disaster he caused didn't teach him then nothing will although it's hard to imagine he could be so stupid as to not have learned his lesson.

Hope springs eternal. Ross Rowland

Someone want me to post the CFR section on fines and requirements again? It isn't just us saying all this
is necessary, it's very clearly spelled out under law.

Out

I haven't seen any pictures so far of any blow downs. Looks like the piping on the blow system is still set up the same way before the longest boiler wash in history. The engine is looking really clean all the time.

CS

CaliforniaSteam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't seen any pictures so far of any blow
> downs. Looks like the piping on the blow system is
> still set up the same way before the longest
> boiler wash in history. The engine is looking
> really clean all the time.
>
> CS


That's because he put the blowers underneath the cab, not up front where it's supposed to because he assumes his steam engines always have to look nice and shiny!

ProAmtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CaliforniaSteam Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I haven't seen any pictures so far of any blow
> > downs. Looks like the piping on the blow system
> is
> > still set up the same way before the longest
> > boiler wash in history. The engine is looking
> > really clean all the time.
> >
> > CS
>
>
> That's because he put the blowers underneath the
> cab, not up front where it's supposed to because
> he assumes his steam engines always have to look
> nice and shiny!

More to the point, he removed the turbine sludge remover/separator, so now both the Fireman's and the Engineer's air operated blowndowns, exit just below and forward of the Engineer's side of the cab.

When I saw them backing away from Memphis, I clearly saw steam being emitted from the blowdown valve after touching Arkansas soil. In true fashion, this happened when I was driving and not recording, so I guess that doesn't count for anything.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ProAmtrak Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CaliforniaSteam Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I haven't seen any pictures so far of any
> blow
> > > downs. Looks like the piping on the blow
> system
> > is
> > > still set up the same way before the longest
> > > boiler wash in history. The engine is looking
> > > really clean all the time.
> > >
> > > CS
> >
> >
> > That's because he put the blowers underneath
> the
> > cab, not up front where it's supposed to
> because
> > he assumes his steam engines always have to
> look
> > nice and shiny!
>
> More to the point, he removed the turbine sludge
> remover/separator, so now both the Fireman's and
> the Engineer's air operated blown downs, exit just
> below and forward of the Engineer's side of the
> cab.



Hey Jack, is that like the bread and butter on the blow down to really get rid of the crap? If so DL's in for a rude awakening again, especially with 4014!

ProAmtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Jack, is that like the bread and butter on the
> blow down to really get rid of the crap? If so
> DL's in for a rude awakening again, especially
> with 4014!

I'm speculating, but I don't think that's how it will play out. ED is going to baby the 4014, so he probably won't experiment. In fact, you should be more worried that 4014's functionality in today's railroading might be compromised because ED will be too obsessed with "historical accuracy."

Historical accuracy? Sure, that's why 3985's mothballed and why 844 changed so much after that worthles rebuild!

Posted from Android

To try and clear up some possible misunderstandings and misconceptions concerning boiler "blowdowns" during the trip, and "blowing down" the boiler every morning prior to re-lighting the fire.

1) Blowdowns during operations, by using the Wilson Sludge Remover, as it was originally designed, helps remove "sludge", "mud", and mineral deposits from the lower side portions of the firebox. The correct boiler water chemicals tend to prevent the foreign materials from sticking/adhering to the inside steel sheets & staybolts, thus causing them to drop/settle to the lowest portions of the boiler/firebox. Depending on how "bad" the water is, the remote, air operated blowdown valves should be used MANY, MANY, MANY times throughout the day, i.e. the more water going through the boiler, the more foreign material needs to be blown out.

2) Blowing down the boiler, prior to each days operation is also a necessity, especially with use of "bad" water. After the locomotive has sat all night without any fire (or a banked fire on a coal burner), much of the foreign material has settled/dropped down to the lowest portions of the firebox. Thus, opening the manual "blowdown valves", located on the lowest, forward portion of each side of the firebox, forces extensive amounts of foreign material out of the boiler. This process should be done, until the water in the gauge glass is down to the bottom of the glass. Then, the fire can be re-lit, and steam pressure rebuilt while adding small amounts of water with the injector, until the working pressure is built back up, and the desired water level in the gauge glass is reached, prior to departure.

But if that sludge remover is being used fully, being the way he has it piped to expel out the bottom, shouldn't a proper blowdown shoot out 30 feet to the side in order for it to work properly and actually clean something up? (piping the steam that normally goes out the top along with the dirty water out the same drain)

Blowdown flow loves the laws of physics, turbulent flow on the boiler side and wide open exhaust
on the other with a minimum of bends and restrictions. Elbows don't help!

Out

Very interesting reading!,reminds me of when I lived in Sothtern Idaho, there was So much Calcium in the water, it would pile up inside the home water heater,so much that if not regularly flushed out, it would build up high enough to surround the bottom electric heating element, and burn it out...Hope they do plenty of blow downs while using that Idaho water!

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

RailRat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very interesting reading!,reminds me of when I
> lived in Sothtern Idaho, there was So much Calcium
> in the water, it would pile up inside the home
> water heater,so much that if not regularly flushed
> out, it would build up high enough to surround the
> bottom electric heating element, and burn it
> out...Hope they do plenty of blow downs while
> using that Idaho water!


Well, even just as important, is the water treatment chemicals used to keep the foreign materials in suspension, so they CAN be blown out. That said, the current manager has NEVER demonstrated that he knows about, nor uses, the CORRECT water treatment chemicals!

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RailRat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Very interesting reading!,reminds me of when I
> > lived in Sothtern Idaho, there was So much
> Calcium
> > in the water, it would pile up inside the home
> > water heater,so much that if not regularly
> flushed
> > out, it would build up high enough to surround
> the
> > bottom electric heating element, and burn it
> > out...Hope they do plenty of blow downs while
> > using that Idaho water!
>
>
> Well, even just as important, is the water
> treatment chemicals used to keep the foreign
> materials in suspension, so they CAN be blown out.
> That said, the current manager has NEVER
> demonstrated that he knows about, nor uses, the
> CORRECT water treatment chemicals!

In the live steam modeling world we use Terlyn. What is used in the 1:1 world??

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > RailRat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Very interesting reading!,reminds me of when
> I
> > > lived in Sothtern Idaho, there was So much
> > Calcium
> > > in the water, it would pile up inside the
> home
> > > water heater,so much that if not regularly
> > flushed
> > > out, it would build up high enough to
> surround
> > the
> > > bottom electric heating element, and burn it
> > > out...Hope they do plenty of blow downs while
> > > using that Idaho water!
> >
> >
> > Well, even just as important, is the water
> > treatment chemicals used to keep the foreign
> > materials in suspension, so they CAN be blown
> out.
> > That said, the current manager has NEVER
> > demonstrated that he knows about, nor uses, the
> > CORRECT water treatment chemicals!
>
> In the live steam modeling world we use Terlyn.
> What is used in the 1:1 world??

I do not know the chemical make-up, nor the "brand name", but we have a Chemist expert on the 4449 crew, who handles all that, as well as testing the water in the boiler at least once a day.. The previous UP Steam Crew did the same thing.

Following up on Jack's accurate comments wth some points....

THE swirl-separator ( Wilson blowoff muffler) does a very good job of separating the liquid water and solids from the steam.
Re: 844's situation, My suspicion is that the vertical vane basket ( that hangs down in the center of the 'can' may have had the separating vanes in the basket become worn, ruined, broke and missing......if that had been the separator she was built with. That's a very violent environment: 300psi steam, water, solids, acids and harsh chemicals --- both in the water and added as treatments. Over all those years of continuous service, what are the chances that the stamped sheetmetat vane separating element would have survived, intact and in original condition.

[You might not have had access to new separators, but there are plenty of donor engines ----- all not used since the late 50s. I believe that the replacement with a fully functioning separator would have very easily solved the problem with the worn condition.
However , other well-known practices led to the early, necessary, boiler tube replacement issue.].

So, when the current crews were blowing down the boiler. There was NO separation of the sludge and mud from the plume out the vent hole in the top of the Wilson separator.....all that crud, especially the white crystals of the water treatment cooled and rained down on the loco below---- with the attendant results and coating. It's a fair bet that the Powers-That-Be decided to go the direct route,and do away with the 'jewelery', and just blow the sludge, water and treatment out directly..

The physics of water exiting an exiting a restricted orifice....
Typically, the spray plume from a bare blow down valve, will expand (in the atmosphere) simulating a parabolic curver ( if seen in profile). There will Form a circular spray pattern expanding in every direction, laterally, as well as straight line.......downstream from the orifice. There will also be a major , straight-line , stream out across the field. The very rapid expansion coupled with the free-air volume has a sudden and temperature drop. Due to the unrestricted expansion volume....the spray cloud, a few feet out is mostly warm to cool water. However, up close the blast is extremely dangerous, and scalding hot.

The Wilson system very neatly controls the sudden expansion with safe top-venting, and the drain to the ground is often piped to a sheet metal diffuser mounted down next to the track....the water and effluent can be very Hot, stay clear.




Back to the free-parabola shape of a simple orifice:
If you employ a long pipe with an Long, expanding cone towards its open end, you can confine that rapid sudden expansion into a supersonic , confined , straight-line Jet. If carefully machined to replicate a long parabola, the steam jet rffectively becomes a 'steam-laser' beam.
That Jet, if it was applied to a mudring blowdown valve, the jet would remain pencil-thin for 50 or more yards..... straight-out...

NOW, confine that jet inside a pipe filled with cold water.....and you've got the concept behind the steam injector for feeding water to the pressurized boiler..
The Imense energy of the pencil-thin jet is both heat and pure kinetic energy.....the heat is absorbed by the flowing water in the pipe, and the violent increase in water velocity virtually blows open the boiler check, allowing the water to fill the boiler-up..

OR, you can use multiple jet streams to axially impimnge turbine wheels, and derive immense & continuous rotary motion ---for driving massive electricity generators & immense ships Eventually, the steam turbine, was adapted to direct-flame and fired the airflow machines that became jet engines.....
The early jets were pure 'reaction' engines.....obeying Newton's 3rd Law.....the equal and opposite reaction. Current practice derives power similar to the old turbo-prop engines ( Lockheed's 4-engine Electra) typically the 4-blade propellers, stubbly and stout, but with variable blade-pitch, including forcing the air towards the front of the plane.
So-called 'reversing the props' ---- true 'dynamicbrake'. The propshaft continues to rotate in the same direction, but the blades force the air to blow towards
The FRONT.

GE and others eventually replaced the propellers with multi-finned 'Fans' .... The turbo-fan engines, of today's technology.
They do a marvelous job, but 'bird-strikes' can become deadly to the passengers...

So, through James Watt's wondering about improving Newcomen's mine-pumping engines, the later mechanics developed the recip-steamers, the steam turbine, the jet turbine and the turbo-fans of today's world .

Living near three airports in the Washington DC, area, i get to see the long con-trails in the sky.
The contrails remind me of the steam, both cylinder exhaust, and the water vapor of the fire, -----products of combustion, from the white-hot fire
of a skillfully fired steamer....
THE video library of the 4449, has ample footage of the thousands of miles of a pure steam "loco-contrails...."

All heat engines owe their origins to Watt, the Stephensons, Walschaerts, the boys at Eddystone, Schenectady and Lima....
"Thank you" to All who are preserving and operating these magnificent machines,
I also include an acknowledgement to the team workers at Cheyenne, Wy.

Yes, I wish that things out there were different, then I remember many similar mistakes that I made in operating steamers.....many of my self-created errors were whoppers, but I had Ross to help dig me out of the serious holes I had dug.
One characteristic that Ross used, and saved us, was to seek and hire the BEST of the old-heads that could guide us: CNJ's Charlie Strunk,
NKP's Dale Moses & Boilermaker Joe Karal, N&W's 'Pappy' Houseman, Roanoke Shops, I was, additionally, taught so much by C&O engineer, J. E. "Ed" Hall, and so many others...
They're all gone, now.
Things are different today....

W.

( Today's "old heads", were our 'students' , back in the day: Doyle, Scott, Steve Wickersham, JJJ, Gary Bensman, the Muldowney brothers.......& so many others are now the 'old heads'
In their formative years, they were 'the boys of summer'....Those were wonderful,years....)



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/17 10:16 by wcamp1472.

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ProAmtrak Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey Jack, is that like the bread and butter on
> the
> > blow down to really get rid of the crap? If so
> > DL's in for a rude awakening again, especially
> > with 4014!
>
> I'm speculating, but I don't think that's how it
> will play out. ED is going to baby the 4014, so he
> probably won't experiment. In fact, you should be
> more worried that 4014's functionality in today's
> railroading might be compromised because ED will
> be too obsessed with "historical accuracy."

If you believe that, you have to explain the spotless appearance, chrome, stainless, polished brass and rods, pizza pans, flags, silver trim, black smokebox and firebox, chrome throttle, etc, etc, etc.

Nothing remotely historically accurate about any of that.