Steam & Excursion > Steam in the Valley Problems

Hello everyone, while in the Cuyahoga Valley today to see the 765, I ran in to two problems/issues I would like to share.

1. Today, I chose my spot to see and shoot the 765 during the 2nd run south. When I got there, I was the only person there. As time progressed, more and more people showed up, which, of course, ended up causing problems. Someone showed up, and immediately started giving me and others orders. Telling us where we could and couldn't stand, yelling at kids for going anywhere near the tracks, people moving into his "lane" to look down the line, and a whole lot more. At one point, I set my bag down to get out my better tripod, I then used the space (his "lane) to set it up, where he immediately screamed at me "Don't even think about it!" as well as others who came and wanted to take a similar shot.

Ok, lets get some things straight. First off, it's a train, relax, it's here for 2 weekends, if you don't get your 100% perfect shot, it's not the end of the world. Second, if you want to play the "this is my space" game, I was there before you, so you can choose another spot. Just because you are a "professional photographer" or whatever doesn't mean you can command me, other rail fans, and little kids. So here's my suggestion, move, calm down, or get out of this hobby, it really just isn't that serious.

2. To the CVSR/765 Crew, I love what you guys are doing, and you're doing an excellent job of it, I know people ask a lot of you, and I know you give a lot. Today in the valley, I moved to a second spot, where I ran into an 80 year old couple waiting for the 765. For a reason I still don't know (maybe someone could tell), the 765 stopped its run south in Peninsula instead of Akron. I know problems happen, and things come up causing problems for you guys, however, on a day that's 87 degrees and 90% humidity, waiting trackside can really suck for folks in their 80s. Those two sat for 2 hours waiting for the 765 to pass, only for me to tell them (after an hour of my own), that the 765 was heading north again. I could not find anything to say that the trip was being cut short or modified, I only heard a call heading north on the scanner. Like I said, I know you guys do a lot, but we could use a little help too, a post on twitter, or the tracker (which wasn't working) to tell us 765 isn't coming.

I know I'm rambling at this point, but we ALL need to do whatever we can to improve our shrinking hobby.

Thanks.

Because you said you thought the train was
going to go one way, and it went another way,
I decided to try to find the schedule on the
web, so I went to the 775 group's home page,
and had to click through several pages before
I was able to find the page with the schedule
info on it, which turned out to be a Cuyahoga
Valley Scenic Railroad page:

https://www.cvsr.com/steam-valley-rides/

Please note: The page I linked to above is a
CVSR page -- on the CVSR website. The CVSR is
the railroad that is hosting the 765 for a
number of excursions these two weekends.

I was very surprised to read the following
from the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, at
the end of the block of text about each trip:

> CVSR WILL NOT DISCLOSE THE LOCATION OR WHEREABOUTS
> OF THE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO ANY NON-TICKET HOLDERS.

That may be the reason why the tracker was off, and
may be why the train did not go where you expected it to go.

FWIW, here is the entire text about this afternoon's trip:

> Steam In The Valley - Rockside Station [STE]
> Enjoy a two hour round trip through the National Park
> with historic locomotive steam engine at the helm!
> Departing Rockside Station located at 7900 Old Rockside
> Road, Independence, OH 44131. CVSR WILL NOT DISCLOSE THE
> LOCATION OR WHEREABOUTS OF THE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO ANY
> NON-TICKET HOLDERS.
> - All Ages Ride -

Kelly Lynch --
Woould you please be so kind as to tell us why no info about
the 765 and her train wold be disclosed by the CVSR and, I
assume, also by the 765's crew? (I know about the problems
crowds can cause around steam locomotives, but this sounds like
far more than just keeping the locations for the run-bys a secret.)
Thanks for any info you can give us about this policy.

I very much hope all went well so far with all the trips so far.
The 765 is a magnificent locomotive! I am so glad she gets out
to run as often as she does. And you guys and gals do a great
job, from eeythng I have seen and read on the web.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/17 01:02 by Margaret_SP_fan.

Who ever shows up first gets their spot. Even if it's not the best spot, others who show up later should respect that first person's choice and not get in their shot. I would have no problem asking someone to move if they got into the shot I had already set up for. I might suggest someone there before move to a better location but would never order or tell them to do so. As for the CV. Why not sell chase passes? That way they make some extra money and those who only want photos benefit as well. You then get a led-yard to wear giving you first dibs at approved locations. Just a thought.

The afternoon trip of NKP 765 did not go farther south than Peninsula on Saturday because it was about 25 minutes late leaving Rockside Road station in Independence. In part that was due to late arriving passengers. The train was going to go as far south as it could until 2:20 p.m. Then it would halt and reverse direction, stopping at Boston Mills station for the photo runbys.

If the guy was really that obnoxious, which I can easily believe, I think I'd rrmind him firmly that you were there first and he was free to find a new spot if he didn't like it.

If that doesn't solve the problem, then a call to either the relevant NPS authorities (isn't it a national park?) or the local police might have to be the next step.

Posted from iPhone

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who ever shows up first gets their spot. Even if
> it's not the best spot, others who show up later
> should respect that first person's choice and not
> get in their shot. I would have no problem asking
> someone to move if they got into the shot I had
> already set up for. I might suggest someone there
> before move to a better location but would never
> order or tell them to do so. As for the CV. Why
> not sell chase passes? That way they make some
> extra money and those who only want photos benefit
> as well. You then get a led-yard to wear giving
> you first dibs at approved locations. Just a
> thought.

Sounds great except who owns the land you are talking about. You cannot on private or public land just sell tickets for spaces. As for the bs caused by the fellow, tell him to take a hike and about the time he touched my bag things might not be too pleasant for the fellow.

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> order or tell them to do so. As for the CV. Why
> not sell chase passes? That way they make some
> extra money and those who only want photos benefit
> as well. You then get a led-yard to wear giving
> you first dibs at approved locations. Just a
> thought.

In the past I have been on the organizing committee of numerous steam excursions. In the past we talked about "Chase passes". We figured it wasn't worth it because people would expect something for there money. If we didn't they wouldn't sell because why would would you buy one. Organizing and runny steam is excursions are a big time consuming operation. The problem with the lanyard idea is who would come up with the approved locations and enforce the "first dibs". The people putting on the excursions don't have the time.

We didn't have electricity for the tracker or power for other devices on yesterday's trips. I had previously contacted OP about this yesterday, but our social media updates and tracker are modern amenities and subject to all the exciting perils of rail preservation, but the tracker is running today.

CVSR doesn't disclose the runby locations because a) they help preserve the experience for customers and b) the information is always subject to change. Lots of variables at play. A recent group was posting the wrong ferry move information for 765 and people were taking vacation for it. You can bet we quietly messaged these people to not waste their vacation days on the wrong days.

As far as Railfan Passes, we've had good luck marketing and recognizing those customers. A bumper sticker, some recognition, a post card...if people expect something for their money, sometimes a little goes a long way.

KL
FWRHS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/17 11:55 by nathansixchime.

This is ridiculous and obnoxious for anyone to complain that they didn't get their pictures of the 765. The CVSR and FWRHS SELL tickets for those who want to PAY for a trip back in time. They are treated to a run-by and experience like non-other in the area.

If you choose to go track side, you get what you get. This whole event is for the enjoyment of the PAYING customers....not the rail fans who think they are entitled to a photo or video. Sometimes people get a little carried away with wanting to get that one shot.....guess what, the internet is flooded with great pictures/videos/experiences...etc.

Do yourself a favor....take your eye out of the viewfinder and just watch....it's much more enjoyable to experience the power, smell, and overall experience when your not consumed with trying to get image of the day on TO. I'm a paying member of FWRHS and make my ticket purchase each year when they are at the CVSR. My son and I enjoyed the experience yesterday from the parking lot at Boston Mills. Though the behavior of the other spectators leave lots to be desired, it was a great experience for both of us. The local police and park rangers deserve credit for keeping it a nice experience for those who PAID and running off the cherry pickers who think they are entitled.

If you want an up close and personal experience....join the group and attend the members weekend.

I remember rail fanning with my dad in the late 80's. He was a great man with killer instincts and a great mind. We didn't need the internet or trackers to catch the 759, 765, 611 or 1218. We listened to radio, used maps and intuition to get to the right spots and right time. It's almost a lost art.

NKP-PRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is ridiculous and obnoxious for anyone to
> complain that they didn't get their pictures of
> the 765. The CVSR and FWRHS SELL tickets for
> those who want to PAY for a trip back in time.
> They are treated to a run-by and experience like
> non-other in the area.
>
> If you choose to go track side, you get what you
> get. This whole event is for the enjoyment of the
> PAYING customers....not the rail fans who think
> they are entitled to a photo or video. Sometimes
> people get a little carried away with wanting to
> get that one shot.....guess what, the internet is
> flooded with great
> pictures/videos/experiences...etc.
>
> Do yourself a favor....take your eye out of the
> viewfinder and just watch....it's much more
> enjoyable to experience the power, smell, and
> overall experience when your not consumed with
> trying to get image of the day on TO. I'm a
> paying member of FWRHS and make my ticket purchase
> each year when they are at the CVSR. My son and I
> enjoyed the experience yesterday from the parking
> lot at Boston Mills. Though the behavior of the
> other spectators leave lots to be desired, it was
> a great experience for both of us. The local
> police and park rangers deserve credit for keeping
> it a nice experience for those who PAID and
> running off the cherry pickers who think they are
> entitled.
>
> If you want an up close and personal
> experience....join the group and attend the
> members weekend.
>
> I remember rail fanning with my dad in the late
> 80's. He was a great man with killer instincts
> and a great mind. We didn't need the internet or
> trackers to catch the 759, 765, 611 or 1218. We
> listened to radio, used maps and intuition to get
> to the right spots and right time. It's almost a
> lost art.

Good to hear that others who did not ride bought a ticket. I'm a member also and have bought tickets for 2 trips in Chicago and 2 in Cleveland. I've only ridden on one trip in Chicago, but I know I need to pay for the experience to be trackside as well. I want trips to continue, and they will only continue if the trips have paying passengers. And yes, definitely put down the camera so you can REALLY experience it!

Ummmm.... methinks my post was misunderstood.

I was referring to what the CVSR posted on their
website, stating they would not disclose the location
of the steam locomotive -- the 765 -- to anyone except
people who had tickets. They never said they were referring
only to run-by sites. This is what is on their website
about this issue:

> CVSR WILL NOT DISCLOSE THE LOCATION OR WHEREABOUTS
> OF THE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE TO ANY NON-TICKET HOLDERS.

Keeping run-by sites a secret from the general public
is fine.

But, as Kelly Lynch and all others who run these magnificent
and very expensive-to-operate steam locomotives know, you have
to market your trips to the general public, and not only to
railfans, who are a very, very tiny percentage of the general
public, and thus far too few in number to support any steam
excursions or trips.

Kelly Lynch --
Thanks for the info about why the tracker was not working.
I had thought you guys turned it off on purpose so you
could keep the 765's whereabouts a secret from all who
were not riding.

And what about that couple who were in their 80s who
waited 2 hours in the heat and humidity to see the 765,
and never got to see her? IMO, they -- and others like
them -- were not "freeloaders".

And because most passengers on any excursion will be
members of the general public -- "John Q Public and his
wife and 2 kids" -- it is IMO important not to keep all
the info about the whereabouts of these wonderful sateam
locomotives a complete secret from the general public.
Today's "freeloaders" (referring ONLY to the general
public here!) may well become tomorrow's paying passengers,
and denying those people chances to see a steam locomotive
in action is not really a good idea. And their kids are
our future!

Please -- those of you who run steam excursions -- do everything
you can to help kids get "bit" by the "bug" of the love of trains,
especially steam locomotives! It may only take one experience of
seeing a steam locomotive in full cry to turn a child into an avid
and life-long railfan.

About buying tickets as a donation when you aren't going to ride:
Please let whoever is selling tickets know that you are not
going to ride, and that you are really making a donation.
If you do that, then the group selling the tickets will
know they can actually sell the seats you will not be using.
Or you could tell the group you are paying for "X" tickets
for the next "X" ticket-buyers. I have read that some people do
that. But, again -- please don't buy tickets if you are
not going to ride; please just make a donation to the group
in the amount of the number of tickets you are not going to use.

I am glad the 765's trips on the CVSR are going well. Hope all
the trips are selling very well!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/17 20:16 by Margaret_SP_fan.

So to the people that contribute to the 765 but don't buy a ticket, your telling them sc**w you, you don't count. Sad, very sad

needles_sub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So to the people that contribute to the 765 but
> don't buy a ticket, your telling them sc**w you,
> you don't count. Sad, very sad

Geez..... When did I say THAT? Wow...... Chill out,
man! Of course those who donate and do not ride DO
count, as do all who donate in any form.

ALL I was saying was that buying a ticket or tickets
when you are not going to ride and not telling the
ticket-sellers that you are not going to ride will
prevent them from selling the seats you had paid for,
which is not fair at all to those who want to ride but
would not be able to IF the trip is a sell-out. My
advice for those people who like to buy tickets and
want the ticket(s) to be a donation is to please tell
the ticket-sellers when you buy your ticket(s) that
you will not be riding, and that the money is a donation.

That way, the ticket-sellers will know they have more
tickets available to sell, and the group will not end
up with unsold seats on a sold-out train. That is all
I was trying to say.

If not riding, I buy a ticket at the last minute, as not all the trips sell out. I think that is the best approach. If all the trips are sold out, then yes, donate.

Posted from Android

-------------------------------------------------------
> NKP-PRR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----

> >
> > Do yourself a favor....take your eye out of the
> > viewfinder and just watch....it's much more
> > enjoyable to experience the power, smell, and
> > overall experience when your not consumed with
> > trying to get image of the day on TO.

I wish we could encourage more people to just soak it in. The number of iPads and tablets we see in front of people's faces really separates them from the experience...

I'm a
> > paying member of FWRHS and make my ticket
> purchase
> > each year when they are at the CVSR. My son and
> I
> > enjoyed the experience yesterday from the
> parking
> > lot at Boston Mills.
> >
> > If you want an up close and personal
> > experience....join the group and attend the
> > members weekend.


Thank you for your membership! We're trying really hard to give our supporters more "perks" and Members Day is one of them.

mdogg Wrote:
>
> Good to hear that others who did not ride bought a
> ticket. I'm a member also and have bought tickets
> for 2 trips in Chicago and 2 in Cleveland. I've
> only ridden on one trip in Chicago, but I know I
> need to pay for the experience to be trackside as
> well.


Appreciate your ticket purchases!

KL
FWRHS

needles_sub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So to the people that contribute to the 765 but
> don't buy a ticket, your telling them sc**w you,
> you don't count. Sad, very sad

Not at all what I'm saying. It's a privalage to see this type of operation in 2017. They are running these trains for people who pay for a ticket.

If your not on the train you can't complain because you didn't get your photos. The public is more than welcome to watch, but be responsible and respectable of those on board.

Posted from iPhone

You guys are making this way too complicated.

Don't confuse things by purchasing tickets and then not using them, or, worse yet, by telling ticket sellers that you will not be using the tickets that you just purchased, and that, instead, the ticket seller can re-sell your previously-purchased-but-now-unsold-tickets to someone else who has not-yet purchased a pre-sold ticket that will not be used by the original purchaser.

If you plan to ride, then purchase a ticket.

If you do not plan to ride, then do not purchase a ticket.

If you want to help the group financially, then just send them a separate check in the amount of your donation.

John B. Corns -- fighting foolish obfuscation for forty years

Thank you for your common sense reply, John.

I love - and respect - that statement: "fighting foolish obfuscation for forty years". Amen.........

nathansixchime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NKP-PRR Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
>
> > >
> > > Do yourself a favor....take your eye out of
> the
> > > viewfinder and just watch....it's much more
> > > enjoyable to experience the power, smell, and
> > > overall experience when your not consumed
> with
> > > trying to get image of the day on TO.
>
> I wish we could encourage more people to just soak
> it in. The number of iPads and tablets we see in
> front of people's faces really separates them from
> the experience...
>

This applies not just to this engine/train. I can't tell you how many times I got home and downloaded the pictures with a feeling of never having seen the train in the first place because I spent my time looking through the camera.

DaleR

PS. Last year my wife and I rode the first trip and then went trackside for the second. I have to admit trackside was much more interesting than sitting in the coach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/17 19:53 by dbrcnw.