Steam & Excursion > A super-dumb steam question...

... seems to be any question asked by anyone here who doesn't hold the answer.

I love and fear and respect and loathe the TO Steam Board. Someone asks a question, then we all get to watch the Seekers get kicked back down the mountain by the Oracles. Some see it as amusing sport: see "get your popcorn" and so on. I see it as a lost opportunity to build interest and engagement.

Oracles should live in confidence that they are respected. No one would ask questions of the experienced if they didn't want to know. It's also harder for some people to research things than it is for Oracles to type answers off the tops of their heads. Yes, there is "internet-lazy" as a growing phenom. But if someone is curious, shouldn't that be enough? Shouldn't that be encouraged, not scolded or mocked? Or given an exasperated, half-complete answer?

Referrals to sources are one way. Short answers are another. "Here we go again" gets no one anything but burning ears and bad feelings. It's the very definition of pointlessness, and is a circular firing squad for the advance of information.

Kudos to the members of this forum who answer all questions simply, in good spirit and faith, and who understand that others will be engaged in good, complete answers that are offered without editorial.

On the restoration project forums I help administer, we all try to respect all questions and questioners as the board's default position. The thinking here is to always, always, always act in support of our mutual goals for the future of what we care about. We all may be the center of our own Universes, surrounded by an ocean of ignorance. But in the grand scheme of the culture we're a niche of a niche of a niche of interest, and curiosity by others in what we do or care about is all we have for a future. Nobody would ask us anything if they already knew what we know. The Elders sitteth upon the oasis of knowledge. I frankly don't comprehend the benefit -- personal or as a positive step towards our mutual interests -- if we chronically tend to thrash the curious for asking a question... and sometimes for asking at all. Every person who's shamed for asking something is a person who might walk away -- and that person may well be a resource to keep the flame burning.

Even well-identified trolls might raise a good point every now and then.

Bottom line for our niche of a niche etc.: there should be no such thing as a dumb question to those of us who have all or most or even some of the answers. Isn't it easiest to just answer the question? Sometimes I think many of us forget that TO is not just a message board -- it's also an ongoing, permanently-accessible learning database for hundreds of people who don't engage in the sharp dialogue of the moment, or need a code to help understand our jocular, smart-ass, or affably crusty personalities. It's hard to remember that sometimes.

Submitted with respect. What's that you do up a rope again? Not asking... I know that answer.

~ BZ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/17 18:03 by Notch16.

I have little knowledge of steam but, as a railroader and a big fan of yours, BZ, I see this same sort of attitude among us 'professionals' in the treatment of 'FNG' railroaders. It's a right of passage, possibly but I try not to buy into it and do my best to help those newbies.

Anyway and completely off the topic, I have noticed a number of freight cars tagged 'ZENK-O.' Have you been up to something?

I agree. Worse case scenario to a legitimate super-dumb steam question is to
simply not acknowledge it.

For example:

What's going on with PRR #1361?

(Which, ironically, is not a super-dumb steam question if it yields a surprise
response as the project is presumed not 100% dead). Short of new info, seems
the most constructive answer would be "Google it", search "1361 above, on TO's,
top right", or... just move along to the next thread.

/Mitch

Y'know... or just answer it, lol.

/Mitch

Notch16 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bottom line for our niche of a niche etc.: there
> should be no such thing as a dumb question to
> those of us who have all or most or even some of
> the answers. Isn't it easiest to just answer the
> question? Sometimes I think many of us forget that
> TO is not just a message board -- it's also an
> ongoing, permanently-accessible learning database
> for hundreds of people who don't engage in the
> sharp dialogue of the moment, or need a code to
> help understand our jocular, smart-ass, or affably
> crusty personalities. It's hard to remember that
> sometimes.
>
> Submitted with respect. What's that you do up a
> rope again? Not asking... I know that answer.
>
> ~ BZ

Thanks for posting that. I've worked with numerous technical people over the years. Good number of them were labeled as "difficult to work with" although I found that to be the opposite in most cases. So here's my perspective on this situation.

Technical people expect themselves and others to continuously improve. That means being asked the same questions again and again can irritate them, regardless if it was done by the same person or not. People who ask has to demonstrate they tried their best, and did some research in advance, instead of seemingly "asking on a whim" without thought.

Technical people are not practiced in diplomacy, either, so don't expect "politeness" or refined etiquette. They are trained to solve problems, and often under deadlines. So when they are faced with what they consider whimsical and mindless, they may react with great impatience.

For example, if I get a "brush off" of what I consider to be an important question, I may inquire the person later, maybe do more research/work in the meantime, and rephrase the question. Guess who has the knowledge? Not me, so I have to use diplomacy instead to get the answer I need. If my dignity was more important than the knowledge, then maybe I don't deserve to know? Anyway, one way to alleviate the hostility is to grow a thicker skin - and that goes for both the "questioner" and "answerer."

The same "grumpy" technical people can flood you with great knowledge under the right circumstances. Lots of great discussions here on TO to prove that.

Excellent commentary, BZ. I’m now an old timer but am far from having all the answers. Like many others, I suspect, I’m hesitant to post a question that might seem ever so simple to some. I remember attending staff meetings on the SP and on the UP. Something came up that no one would ask about, so I would be the “ignorant” guy who would ask for clarification on some point. I felt that I was either the stupid guy in the room for asking about what everyone else surely understood - or - I was the only one willing to risk showing my lack of understanding. A co-worker confided to me after one meeting, saying he was surely glad I had asked my question, since he did not want to be the one to have to show that he did not “get it” either.

We have lost some very good posters over the years here on Trainorders. I know that several left simply because they tired of the childish and even foolish comments following their posts or questions. We all have areas in which we have much yet to learn. Immature responses provide nothing of value.

Very well stated and much needed post.

I've been on this board for several years, been involved in restoration for almost 30 years, and feel I can readily identify the "honest", or " legitimate"questions, and the "Instigator" ones....along with several posters who seem to be "cheerleaders" to make someone either look good or bad. I have no issue with critical commentary by those who have actual experience with the subject at hand. We simply don't need anyone here egging someone on.

Notch, you're a class act.

I know of several railroaders, railroad museum workers, steam restoration experts, and even rank amateurs who won't go near TO for all the same reasons... "Flameorders" can be an insulting place. Sure, one can grow "thick skinned", but why? Life is too short, too full of crazy drivers flipping you off after THEY just made a stupid move, and other unavoidable situations that already require think-skin, so why bother? The question becomes, why does the management at TO allow this to continue? You can't post even one insulting message on other railroad-specific forums without either seeing the post deleted, or, depending on severity, being removed from the forum. To be complete, there are a few forums that run similar to TO, where just about anything short of multiple four letter words or physical threats is left posted, but why should a "newbie" join those, either?

I'm here because I grew up in a railroad family, and already am thick skinned. As to TO, I learned who to listen to, who can be considered a "friend", or who can be considered an "expert", and who to write off as just a grumbling old curmudgeon. I learned it mainly by either decent people trying to help a rookie, or by simply being insulted repeatedly. And yes, I usually exhaust most forms of self-research first. Most of us don't own every book ever printed about railroads and rail equipment. I find CSRM has a great research library, but since it's 2 hours away, I rarely have time to go there just to find answers. Research only goes so far, even in our internet world. If someone doesn't put a piece of information on the internet, you won't find it on the internet. It just isn't there, period. So why can't a question be asked here, without the poster risking being attacked?

As Notch stated, meant with all due respect.

Walter



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/17 06:42 by drumwrencher.

drumwrencher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
So why
> can't a question be asked here, without the poster
> risking being attacked?
>
> Okay, I'm off the soapbox.
>
> Walter

Well, here is one opinion, mine. Maybe if the individual asking the question started with something like, "I have been searching, to no avail about ????????" However, I do NOT have any books on that subject in my collection, nor at my immediate disposal. So, please help with ???????". Then, after the helpful responses, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE remember to come back and post a "Thank you". to those who helped, or tried to help.

Can't remember seeing very many thank you posts, after extensive questions and answers.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> drumwrencher Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> So why
> > can't a question be asked here, without the
> poster
> > risking being attacked?
> >
> > Okay, I'm off the soapbox.
> >
> > Walter
>
> Well, here is one opinion, mine. Maybe if the
> individual asking the question started with
> something like, "I have been searching, to no
> avail about ????????" However, I do NOT have any
> books on that subject in my collection, nor at my
> immediate disposal. So, please help with ???????".
> Then, after the helpful responses, PLEASE,
> PLEASE, PLEASE remember to come back and post a
> "Thank you". to those who helped, or tried to
> help.
>
> Can't remember seeing very many thank you posts,
> after extensive questions and answers.

No offence meant, Jack. You have been very helpful to me in the past. Remember the 844 wheel flattening incident? You were kind enough to offer answers to me, but I figured it would be best if I researched it myself. I came up with lots of answers, so I didn't need to bother you with any more "rookie" questions. I did thank you, as well.

You do bring up a good point: Gratitude is something many here don't show enough of, either.

You are one of the "experts", to me, anyway, not one of the "curmudgeons".

Walter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/17 06:49 by drumwrencher.

I try to find out but have even in this day and age finding things. I have asked off the forum some of the people who know about things a question that I might have trouble putting into words. Each time it has been answered with respect from those people. You know who you are and thanks for them doing it. Boyd in Chiloquin where its wet and cold today, yuck.

Guess you've never been asked. 'how the people in the pilot house can see to steer with that big black thingy sticking out in front of them like that.'

From an otherwise learned and intelligent adult no less.

Sometimes hard to keep a straight face.

Don't you know they are better than us? They have had more experience and more knowledge and they are too good to answer the learners question. They rather insult your lack of knowledge, which you are trying to grow. They must shoot you down. All because you aren't on there level. Wish they were nice enough to share their knowledge without expecting reparations.

Posted from Android

NE2000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't you know they are better than us? They have
> had more experience and more knowledge and they
> are too good to answer the learners question. They
> rather insult your lack of knowledge, which you
> are trying to grow. They must shoot you down.
> All because you aren't on there level. Wish they
> were nice enough to share their knowledge without
> expecting reparations.
>
> Posted from Android

YOU try painstakingly answering questions truthfully only to have the questioner argue with you about the answers and call you an idiot because you don't agree with his or her crackpot beliefs.

Perhaps it's true that there are no stupid questions.
Unfortunately the same cannot be said about a tiny portion of questioners.

Personally, I loathe those persons and when I realize what they are up to, I give them the answer whether they agree with it or not and then drop the subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/17 09:20 by Realist.

I like this post a lot. And, truthfully, asking about any locomotive, including 1361, is not really dumb at all. I get inside scoops all the time by asking friends or people who know more than I do questions that I could NOT otherwise find online. For instance, I knew several months in advance that 611 was most likely going to steam again. A lot of people on here would have gotten their undies in a wad if I asked about it, but yet there were people who knew! New developments happen every day in the preservation world. Just because you think it won't happen, doesn't mean it won't.

I have learned a lot of stuff from good people on here, and I am thankful to those who are willing to share their knowledge. I have personally had good experience asking questions, but that's probably because I actually know enough to only ask educated ones. All the same, if someone asked a question totally ridiculous and out of left field, I should feel privileged to answer it and correct what the person got wrong. Without asking questions, we'd all stay eternally dumb, and often one person's question will spur interesting conversation through which you can learn more than you ever thought to ask about....

Steam is history, power, mechanics, physics, art and beauty all in one, but if people stop asking about it, it will eventually no longer exist. It should be a pleasure and not a chore to answer those "dumb" questions.

HotWater Wrote:

> Well, here is one opinion, mine. Maybe if the
> individual asking the question started with
> something like, "I have been searching, to no
> avail about ????????" However, I do NOT have any
> books on that subject in my collection, nor at my
> immediate disposal. So, please help with ???????".
> Then, after the helpful responses, PLEASE,
> PLEASE, PLEASE remember to come back and post a
> "Thank you". to those who helped, or tried to
> help.
>
> Can't remember seeing very many thank you posts,
> after extensive questions and answers.

I agree completely, Jack.

I guess its a sign of our times or our hectic pace of life but a simple thanks would mean quite a lot and be welcomed as at least an affirmation
or acknowledgement of the time someone in authority spent replying to another persons query. I've been guilty of it and know others are too.
Maybe we all need to be a little more civil in our dealings with others. If we are too embarrassed to publicly offer thanks at least send a PM of thanks
to the source.

Charlie

I have asked quite a few questions on this board, and have always gotten informative answers. I often feel it may be a DQ to the knowledgeable folks on here, because they have the experience and knowledge, but have always been respectfully answered. I will usually do a search here to see if my question has already been asked/answered, but am not always up for going through tons of threads to see if the answer is obscurely buried in an old thread. And I am not a huge fan of wikipedia because you don't know who has entered that information, and I know that the steam experts on here will have the answer.

I find the knowledge of several people on TO that willingly share their expertise with the rest of us is astounding, and appreciate their taking the time to share it. Not to omit anyone who has answered me, but Jack, Wes, and Realist have always had an answer for me. I always try to remember to say thank you, often via PM when it has been a few days since I've been on here instead of bringing an older thread to the top.

Also, I think it is sometimes apparent the difference between a legitimate question and someone trolling, although I do get a kick out of some of the trolling threads.

Great thread. I agree with a lot said, and for all who have answered all of my questions in the past, thank you.

Now, anyone know what is going on with 1361? :)....

(Just kidding gents)

Posted from iPhone

Notch16/BZ --
AMEN! Thank you very, very much for this very thoughtful
and well-put post. And a big "Thank you!" to all who have
replied.

Wise people know and understand that in order to ask an
"intelligent" question, you have to ow half the answer!
I agree that there is no such thing as a dumb question.
Ask away, folks, please. And if you know little about a
subject, please ask questions about it here, but also please
do not tell people who do know what they are talking about
that they are wrong about what they know.

And I also ask people to post a simple "thank you" when
others have taken the time to explain something, and also
please thank those who post great photos and make useful
comments.

A wise man said long ago that it is important to thank people
who have done good things for us. Givers do need and deserve
to be appreciated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/17 15:10 by Margaret_SP_fan.