Steam & Excursion > Drawbar Connections question?

After watching some of the video by NMSL&RHS 2926 connecting the tender to cab I hade no idea it was so labor intensive. Is this the norm for most steam/tender connections. And I can only guess what else need to be connected. I have noticed 3751 is stored disconnected(Amtrak Redondo) that by choice? Thanks all have a nice day....Robert162

robert162 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After watching some of the video by NMSL&RHS 2926
> connecting the tender to cab I hade no idea it was
> so labor intensive. Is this the norm for most
> steam/tender connections. And I can only guess
> what else need to be connected. I have noticed
> 3751 is stored disconnected(Amtrak Redondo) that
> by choice? Thanks all have a nice
> day....Robert162

3751 is stored that way due to space limitations.

Fairly normal..

Lima locos use two bars of same length, the safety bar is fitted with an oblong hole and hard steel bushing.
The two ware virtually the same length, but the oblong hole prevents the safety bats bar from carrying any stresses, either buff or draft...
Thus Lima uses 2 bars and 2 pins for the connections.

The Reading RR T1 class 4-8-4, use a similar two bars arrangements.
The Franklin Radial buffer has three major component: two convex buffer plates affixed to the engine and tender ( one, each), a floating buffer plate that has two concave surfaces that mate, in between the two fixed buffers

The illustrated arrangement seems to use two bars of different lengths and separate pins for each, that may be a Santa Fe -specific arrangement...

For buff forces, two spherical-segment castings are used , and mated to a double sided, concave, floating, buffer. This allows the the most flexibility while navigating uneven track profiles, curves and crossovers , while keeping the same distance between the engine and tender.

To reduce excessive constant battering of the tender against the engine, the spherical plate in the front of the tender is forced against the mating surface if the engine—- in the early sequence of the photos, you can see the ends of the coil springs, behind the tender’s buffer plate....the hollow hole in the Center of the spring retainer casting
( wedge) , allows for a spring tension-relief bolt to compress the buffer spring—— with the spring compressed, the loose buffer casting is NOT forced out, to drop onto the floor or pit.

Later pictures ( in the series) show the buffer compression bolt, in place and at work. Before uncoupling the two vehicles, the compression bolt is thghtened —- As the spring compresses, it allows greater free motion for removing and applying the drawbar pins.
Without the spring compressor,the pins & bars are spring loaded, under tension, and are very hard to remove.
Once compressed, the pin support plates and locks are removed, and typically the pins fall out.....stand clear!!

The buffer compression bolt is removed, once engine & tender are reassembled.
. The buffer spring expands against two ( internal) conical wedges behind the tender’s buffer block, forcing it tightly against the loco’s, fixed, buffer plate.
The buffer wedges, forced apart by the springs, are expanded laterally, behind the tender’s ‘floating’ buffer-plate.
( DANGER...Once separated from the loco, that buffer plate can fall out of its receiving pocket, onto the ground...it’s very heavy.)

And yes, the drawbars must be removed and inspected for cracks periodically, typically every 90-days of service.
The typical method of inspection is by using dye penetrant methods..

FRA inspectors have very keen eyesight, and are trained to spot any indications that the bars/pins have NOT been removed & inspected as required...

W.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/18 06:19 by wcamp1472.

230.90(a) says drawbars and pins must be removed and inspected
by mag particle or dye penetrant at every annual inspection.

The old rule was, indeed, every 90 days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/18 13:57 by Realist.

Didn't the 49 lose its pins in 76, at speed? What caused that?

I want to say Texas?


Nudge

spnudge Wrote:
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> Didn't the 49 lose its pins in 76, at speed? What
> caused that?
>
> I want to say Texas?
>
>
> Nudge

The years 1984, and we were returning with the New Orleans Worlds Fair Daylight. Just a few miles west of Del Rio, Texas the pin fell out of the tender end of the drawbars, at about 45 MPH. Even though it was a single track main line (SP Sunset Route), we didn't delay a single train, and were back on the move after three hours and fifty minutes.

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't the 49 lose its pins in 76, at speed? What
> caused that?
>
> I want to say Texas?
>
>
> Nudge


Texas caused it?

>>>>>>smirk<<<<<<<<<<<

I was thinking as I watched the 2926 drawbar installation video, look at the level of difficulty in a relatively well equipped facility vs. what the 4449 crew had to work with without any prior planning at all, even with the help of a well timed service truck. What I thought was Yikes...and it's true, the Pin Incident was in fact caused entirely by the state of Texas.

Cheers, Dave

Re: 230.90a...

Thanks for that clarification on the required inspection intervals.

Maybe we ought to add the retainer plates for the detailed technical inspection....or replacement .

Typical reatiainer plate securement applications employ a 1” bolt, nut and lock washers.
I’ve heard the ‘shattered retainer plate” theory, but what happened to the retainer bolt?
Wouldn’t the lock-bolt still be in the securement hole of the tender’s frame?
Or, did it “shatter”, too?


Oh, well...
That will continue to be an unsolved mystery...

Wes

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> robert162 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > After watching some of the video by NMSL&RHS
> 2926
> > connecting the tender to cab I hade no idea it
> was
> > so labor intensive. Is this the norm for most
> > steam/tender connections. And I can only guess
> > what else need to be connected. I have noticed
> > 3751 is stored disconnected(Amtrak Redondo)
> that
> > by choice? Thanks all have a nice
> > day....Robert162
>
> 3751 is stored that way due to space limitations.


From what I've seen in pictures and been told...

3751 no longer has to be stored that way. It is currently apart for its 1472 inspection.


Spartacus

Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > robert162 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > After watching some of the video by NMSL&RHS
> > 2926
> > > connecting the tender to cab I hade no idea
> it
> > was
> > > so labor intensive. Is this the norm for most
> > > steam/tender connections. And I can only
> guess
> > > what else need to be connected. I have
> noticed
> > > 3751 is stored disconnected(Amtrak Redondo)
> > that
> > > by choice? Thanks all have a nice
> > > day....Robert162
> >
> > 3751 is stored that way due to space
> limitations.
>
>
> From what I've seen in pictures and been told...
>
> 3751 no longer has to be stored that way. It is
> currently apart for its 1472 inspection.
>
>
> Spartacus

I base my post on numerous observations going by on Metrolink.
It's been stored on two tracks more often then it's been on one track.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spartacus Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PHall Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > robert162 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > After watching some of the video by
> NMSL&RHS
> > > 2926
> > > > connecting the tender to cab I hade no idea
> > it
> > > was
> > > > so labor intensive. Is this the norm for
> most
> > > > steam/tender connections. And I can only
> > guess
> > > > what else need to be connected. I have
> > noticed
> > > > 3751 is stored disconnected(Amtrak Redondo)
> > > that
> > > > by choice? Thanks all have a nice
> > > > day....Robert162
> > >
> > > 3751 is stored that way due to space
> > limitations.
> >
> >
> > From what I've seen in pictures and been
> told...
> >
> > 3751 no longer has to be stored that way. It is
> > currently apart for its 1472 inspection.
> >
> >
> > Spartacus
>
> I base my post on numerous observations going by
> on Metrolink.
> It's been stored on two tracks more often then
> it's been on one track.


Ok. You win.


Spartacus

Posted from iPhone

Thanks Wes for taking the time out. robert162

Yes,

It’s not well recognized that there is a distinction between pulling forces and pushing forces.... draft vs. buff forces. They’re called “draft horses” and buffers for a reason.

In other pictures of the 4449 and the T&P 610, the 610 is notable because it was an early attempt to build a 10-coupled loco, with flexibility for curves. The design predated the existence of the cast, one-piece loco frames, and also predated the infrtoduction of the Delta ( 3-point suspension) trailer truck castings....

The 610’s trailer truck is a “frame extension” with the buff and draft forces transmitted to the trailer truck frame/box, instead of the frame proper.

Lima found that the the idea was a weak point that was problematic in service. It battered the truck frame... when in heavy draft conditions, the rear of the truck tended to squeeze the side frames together, and with strong buff forces, the frame wanted to push to one side—— only restrained by the flanges of 2 wheels... making the loco liable to suffer derailed trailer
trucks, as well as frame stresses.

Lima’s 2-10-4 locos came along after the introduction of cast, one piece frames and Delta trainer trucks.... Berks came about by downsizing the 2-10-4, into a 2-10-4, with a monster firebox that was very capable steam producer—- under all conditions..

Early Berks had small drivers, being built emulating Mikados of their day.

Later Berks, increased the driver diameter, thus increasing the cruising speed, and total horsepower was dramatically increased...

The increased speed made the rapidly whirling counterweights on the drivers shake the whole engine—— the solution was to move the main crank pins further away from the C.O.G.,
by moving the “main driver” to the 2nd axle—— but, that led to a critically short Main rod.

All solved by using a 4-wheel pilot truck.... on an extended frame—-the “Northerns”.

One of the BEST designed Norterns are the Santa Fe’s 2900s.

That’s why she’s so significant.
That group of Northerns represents the pinnacle of the 4-8-4 designs.
They could have cruised at 120-per,
for hours on-end, if allowed...

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/18 08:11 by wcamp1472.

Wasn't there a picture of Dick Yeager with the drawbar pin up on one shoulder carrying it back up to the 4449?

Like Wes said. Here's a graphic interpretation of Lima's articulated 4 wheel trailer truck.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,3884580,3884580#msg-3884580

-Larry Doyle

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,2965476,page=1

daylightfan Wrote:
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> Wasn't there a picture of Dick Yeager with the
> drawbar pin up on one shoulder carrying it back up
> to the 4449?

I think this is the thread you were thinking of. Pictures 11 and 12?

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,3834306,page=1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/18 11:48 by BDrotarIII.