Steam & Excursion > From the vestibule - Southern (T&P) 610 -- Sept 77

One shot from what seemed a billion taken from the many enjoyable miles hanging out of the vestibule on Southern steam trips.
This one was from the Roanoke-Bluefield and Cedar Bluff trip during the excellent 1977 NRHS Convention in Roanoke.
N&W diner can be seen in the consist - Breakfast and lunch was served.

Gary 

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Excellent vestibule photo.  #610 was my favorite of the steam engines operated by the Southern.
Thanks for posting your photo.
ALLEN

I shot that trip, and attended the Banquet in Roanoke.  As I recall 610 blew its fire out in Montgomery Tunnel en route to Bluefield.  I think something happened to it later and diesels brought the train back, or something like that!! I recently got some films transferred to video of this convention.  4501 and 610 doubleheaded up Blue Ridge one day to Lynchburg.
Greg
http://www.gregschollvideo.com

gregscholl Wrote:
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> I shot that trip, and attended the Banquet in
> Roanoke.  As I recall 610 blew its fire out in
> Montgomery Tunnel en route to Bluefield.  I think
> something happened to it later and diesels brought
> the train back, or something like that!! I
> recently got some films transferred to video of
> this convention.  4501 and 610 doubleheaded up
> Blue Ridge one day to Lynchburg.
> Greg
> http://www.gregschollvideo.com

I was trying to remember all the things that happened on these excursions during that convention (mostly to the 610).
You're right, something happened in a tunnel and 610 also stalled on one of the grades (might have been at that tunnel).
Anyway looking at the slides when we reached Bluefield and some of them showed 610 in a siding near the station so you were right, diesels back to Roanoke.
Anyway it was a fun convention.
I'll have to take a look at your videos.
Gary 

It burned out a pony truck bearing due to trailing truck being shimmed.  Shim removed and no more problems

Hey look, a non matching consist from 1977, lol....but great photo anyway, thanks for sharing

Posted from iPhone

One of the best "from the vestibule" photos I have seen.
Bob

I had heard over the years that the Southern ran 610 way too hard and  faster than the engine was designed for.  Can anyone comment on that ? 

UP951West Wrote:
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> I had heard over the years that the Southern ran
> 610 way too hard and  faster than the engine was
> designed for.  Can anyone comment on that ? 

Here is somewhat of a summery of the SR/NS steam locomotive situations

The Southern Steam Program basically featured smaller engines like 4501, 722, 630, and 750 ran trips too.
The 4501 was the biggest and could handle decent sized trains.  As the amount of trips grew along with the train sizes they looked outside for other engines to
help them.

610 was leased because it was big enough to pull just about any sized excursion train, without steam or diesel help.  The downsize was the 2-10-4 wheelbase made it too tight for some branchlines and turning on wyes.  It had a few minor derailments.

2839  The former CPR Royal Hudson was leased because it was the next best thing to a Southern PS4, and could get out and run fast.  It was good for that, but not with the heavier trains, which needed a diesel helper, especially on grades.  It was a great engine on shorter trains, but the steam program needed more coaches to be pulled.  2839 ran from 1979-1980.  This engine sounded great and we did a few runs, including riding and chasing the last one.  

2716  The former C&O engine was leased and ran mostly in 1981.  It was a good size for the trains and had power and speed.  It had some mechanical issues which sidelined it early as I recall.

765 filled in some in there in 1982 I believe, before 611 was ready.

611 came on the scene in 1982, and thus there was no need to continue with the lease of 2716

1218 made its debute in 1987, but only ran 5 years through 1991.

During the above when the bigger engines were running there were times when the smaller engines would be running as well.  After getting 611 and 1218 running there was no need for anything else as these two could handle about anything.

Probably some holes in my summery, but its off the top of my head.

Greg Scholl
http://www.gregschollvideo.com

PS.  I do not have the footage from the 77 convention available on any dvd's at this time.  Maybe next year along with more Southern material.

On the 1977 excursion Roanoke to Bluefield and then to Cedar Bluff, the 610 took the trip to Bluefield and did suffer the "blowout" of its fire in Montgomery Tunnel. At Bluefield the Bi-Centennial painted SD45 No. 1776 was substituted for the 610 and took the train to Cedar Bluff. The train was turned on the wye there that included a photo runby with 1776 running long hood forward - as God and the N&W intended! The 610 replaced 1776 at Bluefield, but the return trip to Roanoke was plagued by numerous stops to check bearings when hot-box detectors were activated. At some point it was decided that the detectors were being set off by the firebox and stops were made only if the detector was activated by the lead (pony truck) axle. Arrival in Roanoke on that trip was well after dark.

The 610 was supposed to meet up with Southern 4501 at Lynchburg on the inbound convention specials but was delayed by problems with the overheating pony truck and dispatchers holding it for freight traffic. The 4501 had originated its train in Durham. With 610 nowhere close, the decision was made for 4501 to continue on to Roanoke solo despite some concern over being low on coal. The 610 finally arrived in Roanoke with its train from Alexandria after midnight.

arrow611 Wrote:
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> On the 1977 excursion Roanoke to Bluefield and
> then to Cedar Bluff, the 610 took the trip to
> Bluefield and did suffer the "blowout" of its fire
> in Montgomery Tunnel. At Bluefield the
> Bi-Centennial painted SD45 No. 1776 was
> substituted for the 610 and took the train to
> Cedar Bluff. The train was turned on the wye there
> that included a photo runby with 1776 running long
> hood forward - as God and the N&W intended! The
> 610 replaced 1776 at Bluefield, but the return
> trip to Roanoke was plagued by numerous stops to
> check bearings when hot-box detectors were
> activated. At some point it was decided that the
> detectors were being set off by the firebox and
> stops were made only if the detector was activated
> by the lead (pony truck) axle. Arrival in Roanoke
> on that trip was well after dark.
>
> The 610 was supposed to meet up with Southern 4501
> at Lynchburg on the inbound convention specials
> but was delayed by problems with the overheating
> pony truck and dispatchers holding it for freight
> traffic. The 4501 had originated its train in
> Durham. With 610 nowhere close, the decision was
> made for 4501 to continue on to Roanoke solo
> despite some concern over being low on coal. The
> 610 finally arrived in Roanoke with its train from
> Alexandria after midnight.

Thanks for the info to revive my memories of those trips.
I was looking at shots I took of the 1776 on that run and could not remember what trip it was since it wasn't mentioned in the trip schedule I still have.
I do remember the late arrival back to Roanoke. I was also on the convention special from Alexandria and remember all the problems with the 610 and the late arrival.
Both those trips were long days but I enjoyed every minute of them.
Now to get all my slides organized from that convention - it will help my memories of those trips.
Gary

gcm Wrote:
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> One shot from what seemed a billion taken from the
> many enjoyable miles hanging out of the vestibule
> on Southern steam trips.
> This one was from the Roanoke-Bluefield and Cedar
> Bluff trip during the excellent 1977 NRHS
> Convention in Roanoke.
> N&W diner can be seen in the consist - Breakfast
> and lunch was served.
>
> Gary

Thanks for the great picture and a reminder of a fun time.

As I recall there was no N&W diner on the train.  The car that appears to be a dining car is the Roanoke NRHS Chapter's former Great Northern lunch counter-dormitory "Devils Lake."  At some point it was renamed the "Carol Jensen" after Carl Jensen's wife.  The head car is the former Central of Georgia Nancy Hanks combine, now at the Western Maryland Scenic RR?

I remember the flameout in Montgomery Tunnel.  As I recall the fire was reignited almost immediately and there was no delay because of this.  However the front part of the train was noticeably darker.........

Going into Bluefield, where the grade is steeper,  the engine slipped badly on curves - probably on curve-greased rails.  Once on straight rail 610 recovered and brought the train into Bluefield OK.  Were the center drivers "blind" on the 610?  As mentioned, 610 did bring the train back to Roanoke after the diesel trip to Cedar Bluff.

Relating to an earlier discussion on the New Castle District and Louis Newton, I remember Louis saying that a N&W class J engine could handle 16 cars (and keep the schedule) to Bluefield and if I remember correctly that is what we had that day.  Later excursions after 1982 with the N&W 611 did have more than 16 cars, up to 24 or 25?

W. Graham Claytor Jr of the Southern Railway was at the convention and he may have been the speaker at the banquet.  Since the N&W did not have any operating steam engines in 1977 he was instrumental in bringing the Southern's 4501 and 610 to Roanoke and turning what would have been a good convention into a great one.

Jim

T&P 2-10-4's never had a blind center driver.

Jimbo Wrote:


>
> As I recall there was no N&W diner on the train.
>  The car that appears to be a dining car is the
> Roanoke NRHS Chapter's former Great Northern lunch
> counter-dormitory "Devils Lake."  At some point
> it was renamed the "Carol Jensen" after Carl
> Jensen's wife.  The head car is the former
> Central of Georgia Nancy Hanks combine, now at the
> Western Maryland Scenic RR?
> Jim

Thanks for the reminder about the Great Northern car.
I forgot I had posted inside shots of the Great Northern car and the N&W diner 494.
In the shot I posted yesterday the ex-Great Northern car is first with N&W diner 494 next.
Here are the links to the inside shots ---

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2765197,2765197#msg-2765197
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2764331,2764335#msg-2764335

Thanks.
Gary 

Here are several pictures from the 1977 NRHS Convention hosted by the Roanoke Chapter. The first is 1776 on the photo runby at Cedar Bluff. The second is Southern 4501 receiving some attention at the Norfolk and Western Woodall Road station while awaiting arrival of Southern 610. The third is the pair Norfolk and Western Alco RS3 locomotives on a photo runby in the yard on the Lone Star branch which diverges from the Hagerstown (Shenandoah Valley) line at Cloverdale. The heritage of the lead engine was Nickel Plate (note the number boards) while the second engine was No. 307, one of the eight original N&W RS3s. Interestingly, these eight arrived on the N&W wearing Nos. 92-99 - but numbered in "reverse" order. They were renumbered when a block assigned to steam locomotives was cleared. They are noted as being the first diesels purchased by N&W.

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Here is one more shot from the 1977 convention with 610 and 4501 leading a double-headed excursion past the Tinker Connection near the Roanoke-Vinton line. At Lynchburg the train would be split with 610 returning to Roanoke with a short consist of five or six cars, while 4501 would continue south to Altavista on the Southern and then return to Roanoke via the former Virginian.

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Thanks for the update on the N&W dining car 494 in the 1977 convention train.  I had totally forgotten about it.  Guess I didnt eat there!

The 1148 "Devils Lake" is still owned by the Roanoke Chapter NRHS but hasn't been used much in recent years.

From the pictures taken or from someone's consist, can anyone tell how many cars were actually in the Bluefield train?

Jimbo Wrote:
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> From the pictures taken or from someone's consist,
> can anyone tell how many cars were actually in the
> Bluefield train?

Roughly from my pictures about 14 cars.
Gary

>  The head car is the former
> Central of Georgia Nancy Hanks combine, now at the
> Western Maryland Scenic RR?
>

The car is now called “Man O’ War” and was recently sold by the WMSR to the TVRM.

Posted from iPhone

BKLJ611 Wrote:
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> >  The head car is the former
> > Central of Georgia Nancy Hanks combine, now at
> the
> > Western Maryland Scenic RR?
> >
>
> The car is now called “Man O’ War” and was
> recently sold by the WMSR to the TVRM.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Which is interesting as the original C of G "Man O' War" combine was a Budd stainless steel car and is/was at the Cuyahoga Valley.