Steam & Excursion > D&SNGRR fire lawsuit hits the LA Times

Story on the Times website this morning: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-08-06/after-wildfire-residents-reluctantly-sue-their-historic-railway

BS. Lawsuits were filed by locals before the fire was out.

Burlington John
 

I dunno about that "reluctant" part.

They are considering economic suicide.  Few people would drive all that way, spend money on lodging and meals,  to ride a slow train to Silverton and back pulled by a diesel.  I’m glad I rode it when I did.

Durango, Colorado would be just another small town like many others that exist in the rural west, but the D&SNGR has brought untold economic benefit to Southwest Colorado for decades.  These businesses that are suing the railroad wouldn't exist without the railroad. 
Hopefully the railroad had enough liability insurance to cover the damages.
Photo from opening day, 2019.

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Copy19 Wrote:
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> They are considering economic suicide.  Few
> people would drive all that way, spend money on
> lodging and meals,  to ride a slow train to
> Silverton and back pulled by a diesel.  I’m
> glad I rode it when I did.

Would oil-fired steam be an acceptable compromise for the purists?

Look. I love steam. To the point that I’m training to become a fireman. But we have to face reality. The West is now wildfire country. If the D&S indeed sparked the 416 Fire, they need to own up. And the scenery will be just as spectacular no matter what’s pulling the train.

Case in point: my wife and I rode the White Pass on our honeymoon. By far the most spectacular train ride I’ve ever taken. Our motive power? Yep. Diesels.

Posted from iPhone

The D&SNGR is converting D&RGW 493 to burn oil.  Certainly that would be much better than a diesel which I wouldn't drive up there to photograph or ride behind.  Yes, I've ridden the Yukon and White Pass and it's cool, but people don't ride it to ride behind a steam locomotive like they do in Durango or Chama. 

burlingtonjohn Wrote:
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> BS. Lawsuits were filed by locals before the fire
> was out.
>
> Burlington John
>  

Why is it BS? Is it because we tend to look at all Steam Operators with rose colored glasses? Have we forgotten that Harper had layed off the experienced Fire Crews shortly before this happened to reduce costs? Have we forgotten that the railroad has been found to be the cause of the fire? I don't wish to see the operation fail anymore than you do... but lets be realistic, everyones poop stinks.

Regards,

Dave

dbesade Wrote:
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> Why is it BS? Is it because we tend to look at all
> Steam Operators with rose colored glasses? Have we
> forgotten that Harper had layed off the
> experienced Fire Crews shortly before this
> happened to reduce costs?

I definitely don't wear rose-colored glasses especially if you combine your last quoted sentence with the word retaliation. Yes, it sounds ludicrous and conspiracy theory-ish, but I also remember who started some of the wildfires in CA in the past.
 

YardLimit Wrote:
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> The D&SNGR is converting D&RGW 493 to burn oil. 
> Certainly that would be much better than a diesel
> which I wouldn't drive up there to photograph or
> ride behind.  Yes, I've ridden the Yukon and
> White Pass and it's cool, but people don't ride it
> to ride behind a steam locomotive like they do in
> Durango or Chama. 

I'd guess that the majority of passengers ride the 'old-time' train for the scenery, visit the mining town of Silverton and just for a train ride, period.  What's pulling it is irrelevant to most people.  I predict the railroad will do just fine with diesel or oil-fired steam power.   The real threat is to what degree they can meet the final monetary damages against them.  Hopefully they have a ton of insurance.

KWH49 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would oil-fired steam be an acceptable compromise
> for the purists?
>
> Look. I love steam. To the point that I’m
> training to become a fireman. But we have to face
> reality. The West is now wildfire country. If the
> D&S indeed sparked the 416 Fire, they need to own
> up. And the scenery will be just as spectacular no
> matter what’s pulling the train.

I think oil-fired steam would work fine.  You’ll still have those great locomotives and those wonderful whistles.

JB - Omaha

I’d be curious as to what percentage of riders are there for coal-fired steam and what percentage is there for the scenery and/or Stapleton. Like utwazoo, I’m guessing the latter outweighs the former.

When the heat is on and the landscape is dry, diesel or oil-fired steam may have to carry the day (and the passengers). I’d still ride.

YardLimit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The D&SNGR is converting D&RGW 493 to burn oil. 
> Certainly that would be much better than a diesel
> which I wouldn't drive up there to photograph or
> ride behind.  Yes, I've ridden the Yukon and
> White Pass and it's cool, but people don't ride it
> to ride behind a steam locomotive like they do in
> Durango or Chama. 

Posted from iPhone

Let us not forget that starting a fire, and creating the conditions for allowing it to spread are two entirely different things here.   Suppose a D&S steam engine started a fire (and they do all of the time) and the fire did NOT spread, then what do you have?  Nothing.  However, the conditions existed and still do in most of the west, for a very small fire to become a VERY LARGE FIRE  in a  very short time frame.  The USFS is the primary agency responsible for forest management in the area, and its management policies created the conditions for the quick spread of the fire, and in EVERY fire in the National Forests in the past 20 or more years.    Therefore who is really responsible for the large damge?    

I’d say both — the one who created the conditions AND the one who lit the spark.

elueck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let us not forget that starting a fire, and
> creating the conditions for allowing it to spread
> are two entirely different things here. 
>  Suppose a D&S steam engine started a fire (and
> they do all of the time) and the fire did NOT
> spread, then what do you have?  Nothing. 
> However, the conditions existed and still do in
> most of the west, for a very small fire to become
> a VERY LARGE FIRE  in a  very short time
> frame.  The USFS is the primary agency
> responsible for forest management in the area, and
> its management policies created the conditions for
> the quick spread of the fire, and in EVERY fire in
> the National Forests in the past 20 or more
> years.    Therefore who is really responsible
> for the large damge?    

Posted from iPhone

elueck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Let us not forget that starting a fire, and
> creating the conditions for allowing it to spread
> are two entirely different things here. 
>  Suppose a D&S steam engine started a fire (and
> they do all of the time) and the fire did NOT
> spread, then what do you have?  Nothing. 
> However, the conditions existed and still do in
> most of the west, for a very small fire to become
> a VERY LARGE FIRE  in a  very short time
> frame.  The USFS is the primary agency
> responsible for forest management in the area, and
> its management policies created the conditions for
> the quick spread of the fire, and in EVERY fire in
> the National Forests in the past 20 or more
> years.    Therefore who is really responsible
> for the large

How do you figure its the fault of the US Forest Service unless you’re referring to the 10am policy that came out of the 1910 fires. 

JohnM Wrote:

> How do you figure its the fault of the US Forest
> Service unless you’re referring to the 10am
> policy that came out of the 1910 fires. 

Over a century of fire suppression that created an overcrowded, diseased forest environment ripe for a large crown fire.  Yes, there are millions of acres of that in the Rocky Mountain West just waiting for an ignition source in a dry year (and 75% of the wildfires started in southwest Colorado and northern New Mexico are started by lightning).

Also, thanks to ignorant people building trophy houses snuggled right against the tinderbox National Forests, the Forest Service, even though the agency knows that many of its forests are tinderboxes, now has to pursue a policy of near 100% fire suppression because it cannot guarantee that a prescribed burn will not cross over onto the private land and toast up some trustfunder's multi-hundred thousand dollar "cabin."  The mandate of the US Forest Service has been perverted from managing the forests owned by the people of the United States to being the world's largest fire department protecting private structures not even located on Forest Service land.  Yet another screwed up political mess.

As to the D&S--it likely has at least some culpability in this mess.  Understand, too, though that there a lot newcomers around Durango--many of them affluent retirees, trustafarians, etc. who have no reliance on the local economy for their well being.  They don't give a damn about the economic benefit that the railroad brings the community.  In fact, they would love to see the railroad gone because it brings in the lower and middle class "riff-raff" tourists that ruin the upper class "ambience" of the place.  I've been familiar with Durango for a half-century plus.  Believe me, that's part of what's happening there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/19 15:40 by WW.

Well, just like everything else, at the time decisions were made, they used their best judgement, and bowed to political will.   It’s easy to sit today and place blame for decisions made long ago.   As for precribed fire it’s a tough decision at times for line officers, incident commanders and burn bosses to put fire to the ground.  Most of the time things go right, but when they don’t, folks get crucified by the public and the armchair experts.  

For the federal government, the wildland agencies (FS/BLM/NPS/USFWS) will do the cause and origin of a fire, and law enforcement will arrest or issue a violation notice if a crime has been committed.  Regarding collection of fire suppression and rehabilitation costs, that portion is handled independently by the US Attorney.   

So so feel free to defer blame all over the place, but in my world it circles right back to the train.  Yes, it sucks that they are converting a locomotive to oil and using diesels as needed, but they obviously now have ran through their own risk versus gain scenarios.   Heck maybe on the oil burner, they will hang out of the cab in a green vest just for the lead and asbestos crowd to bitch and moan.   

If I remember correctly no structures were lost in the fire.  The majority of the money mentioned is a government demand for fighting the fire.  Those millions are usually negotiated way, way down.

Back to structures, many of the plaintiffs are just aledging loss of income at their business  because THE RAILROAD DID NOT RUN.    Well, I don't know of any law that allows you to earn a specified amount of money per year and blame someone else if you don't.  Yes some were advised to abandon their homes due to fire danger and incurred some expense in doing it.  They should be reimbursed.

Loads of insurance by the D&S?   Not anywhere  near the amount of damages claimed..

There was a good discussion about this previously on Trainorders.

Steam is steam.  If we are so picky that we must use coal to be authetic, then it's time to get a different hobby.  Convert them to oil and move forward.

Did the D&S have a motorcar with limited fire fighting equipment closely following that train as the C&TS does regularly with its trains ?