Steam & Excursion > Erie Matt Shay

Yesterday I acquirred this photo post card of the Erie 5014 Matt Shay with no information on the card.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/20 12:23 by PCCRNSEngr.

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Nice find !

I little searching and it would likely be Binghamton when new (1914) 

See link - https://www.american-rails.com/triplex.html
 

I like the kid, on the front railing...diggin' himself on the perch...!

Those are the rare Goldberg air pumps ...
( designed by Rubin Goldberg, only sold 2 of them...) 


​W.

Doug  Thanks for the location.

train1275 Wrote:
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> Nice find !
>
> I little searching and it would likely be
> Binghamton when new (1914) 
>
> See link
> - https://www.american-rails.com/triplex.html
>  

Don't forget, the Virginian Rwy.. had one too.

Just needed a boiler that could keep up with the steam demand.

PHall Wrote:
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> Just needed a boiler that could keep up with the
> steam demand.

Why would you think that 96 sq. ft. of grate and a combustion chamber wouldn't be capable of providing sufficient steam to feed its two 36" x 32" high pressure cylinders.  It was stoker fired with the Street Stoker recently discussed in Whazzit? (14).  It's not a particularly huge engine - with a total wheelbase of 90' 0" it fit easily on a 100 ft. turntable.

One thing that is a puzzle to me is why at this late date, 1914, it had an acetylene headlight!

-LD

Keystone1 Wrote:
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> Don't forget, the Virginian Rwy.. had one too.

Erie had three 2-8-8-8-2 engines.  Virginians were 2-8-8-8-4. 

-LD

LarryDoyle Wrote:
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> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just needed a boiler that could keep up with
> the
> > steam demand.
>
> Why would you think that 96 sq. ft. of grate and a
> combustion chamber wouldn't be capable of
> providing sufficient steam to feed its two 36" x
> 32" high pressure cylinders. 

Obviously I'm not very familiar with those things but, are you saying that out of the 6 cylinder arrangements, only 2 were high pressure? 

It was stoker fired
> with the Street Stoker recently discussed in
> Whazzit? (14).  It's not a particularly huge
> engine - with a total wheelbase of 90' 0" it fit
> easily on a 100 ft. turntable.

Even though, from what little I've read about that thing, it reportedly ran out of boiler pressure pretty quickly.

> One thing that is a puzzle to me is why at this
> late date, 1914, it had an acetylene headlight!
>
> -LD

HotWater Wrote:
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> Obviously I'm not very familiar with those things
> but, are you saying that out of the 6 cylinder
> arrangements, only 2 were high pressure? 

Yes.  All 6 cylinders were 36 x 32 cast from the same pattern.  Superheated steam was fed to the two middle cylinders.  The right hand cylinder exhausted  into the pair of cylinders at the front of the engine, then up the stack.  The left hp cylinder exhausted to the pair of cylinders under the cab, which then went to a feedwater heater in the tender, then up that rear stack at the back of the tender.

> Even though, from what little I've read about that
> thing, it reportedly ran out of boiler pressure
> pretty quickly.

I can't believe that boiler couldn't supply sufficient steam, though it might have been poorly drafted, but it sure would seem that the low pressure cylinders would not be starved.

>
> > One thing that is a puzzle to me is why at this
> > late date, 1914, it had an acetylene headlight!
> >
> > -LD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/20 12:36 by LarryDoyle.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those are the rare Goldberg air pumps ...
> ( designed by Rubin Goldberg, only sold 2 of
> them...) 
>
>
> ​W.

Those are curious.  Baldwin's drawings show a pair of cross compound pumps on the left side.

-LD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/20 12:32 by LarryDoyle.

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The biggest problem with the triplex compound articulateds was that while under way the boiler only had to feed two cylinders, when starting that boiler had to feed six cylinders. Compounds had to start in simple mode in order to get the train started.  Once moving above a minimum speed the engineer would change the mode to compound.  In the case of the Virginian 2-8-8-8-4 the engine would almost always run out of steam before that speed could be reached.  Also, the exhaust from the rear engine was not sent to the smokebox, and so did not contribute to the draft.

Stuart

Yup, that tender draft didn't help much. As I've said before, just because something can be done doesn't mean it should. And, I take
exception with Mr. Doyle's claim that the engines grate area is capable of keeping up with cylinders that size. Do the stinkin math and
compute the volume per stroke of those beasts.

Out 

Where is the headlight?

Good point about the starting demands...don't forget ....they must be equipped with live-steam
pressure reducers...keeps the drivers from slipping wildly...  Compounding is not a free source
tractive power ---- it's all powered from the HP cylinders ....sequentially pushing the down-stream 
engines' pistons...

However, don't forget the even Berks NEED that "virtually-100 sq. Ft" grate.
When running a large, compound engine ...don't forget that the steam leaving the HP cylinders
has the 'back pressure' from the down-stream cylinders.

What happens is that the steam from the HP cylinders actually assists pushing the LP cylinders..
you never get a chance to shorten the valve cut-off... thus, you're effectively running as an immense 
"soaker".... with steam, if under pressure, is little more than hot  water ....

These beasts have too many cylinders for a paltry 96 sq. Ft. grate.....No-Way it could
possibly keep up!

You need a big crown sheet, you'd need at least 2, maybe three Thermic Syphons,
and a multi-ported exhaust arrangement similar to the UP 3900s & 4000s... proper drafting
is the true key to effective steaming capacity.

You'd want a grate area as least as big as a 4000's --- in order to push all those pistons.

These also are low-speed machines....that's tremendously demanding on steam production....
They never get a chance get up and cruise at a fast speed.  
They never get a chance to get a beneficial change in the valve-travel...they're always 
in starting mode' ... 96 sq.ft of grate? ----- gimme-a-break!

​W. 
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/20 19:54 by wcamp1472.

I looked at my Erie Power book and by 1915 those air pumps in the photo above are gone, with the replacements mounted on the fireman's side. Looking at the spec sheet in the book, the Matt Shay had 90 sq. ft of grate area as opposed to 121.5 sq. ft in the 2 that followed in 1916. Interestingly, Matt Shay had had 6886 sq. ft. total heating surface while the 2 follow-ons had 6851.Super heating surface was the same for the 3 of them, 1584 sq. ft. using "Schmidt super heater" with 53 elements and used a "Street mechanical stoker". 
Weight on drivers is listed as 761,600lbs. for Matt Shay and 766,300lbs. for the other 2. Steam pressure was 210 psi. Driver Dia. for all 3 were 63 inches.

The book states that "Some Erie men firmly believed that if the feed-water pumps worked as intended the Triplex engines would have steamed well." The Triplexes were retired in 1927. 

You could 66,000 sq feet of superheat area and with the draft that thing produced they'd wouldn't do anymore which
is approximately-zero. Not only does it lack draft but you couldn't keep the fire hot enough to produce the required
flame front. 

Out

The headlight is in the middle of the smokebox .  It has a protective box around it to prevent any damage when the engine was transported.

The boiler only feeds 6 cylinders for the first 20 feet of its run, after which it's switched to compound.

-LD

" .... switched to compound...."
....& then promptly ran out of steam....😡

Imagine trying to shove a train, and then the boiler needs water..bad!
Whada'ya do?

W.