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Steam & Excursion > C&O 1309Date: 08/14/20 15:52 C&O 1309 Author: Keystone1 Ok.......not much going on. So what is really happening with the C&O. 1309? Will we see it tested on the road THIS year? Just wondering.....
Date: 08/14/20 16:26 Re: C&O 1309 Author: PlyWoody The manager of the WMS is the stingiest person in the tourist train industry. If you don’t pay, you’re not entitled to find out what is happening. We expect the next move will be a 4 am work train to shove the 1309 engine up to Frostburg and see how well it will go on to the turntable, which should be no problem. The PRR called for 1200’ radius vertical curve for locomotives over a hump. If necessary the rails could be humped on the turntable to ease the grade change.
But the rumor was there was fear the engine would derail on the lead into the station platform because it has a reported 22.5 degree curve, and the locomotive is designed only for 22 degree maximum curve. Yes, and if it derails they will ban the locomotive but it is not the locomotive design fault if the pilot wheels get squeezed off. It is the manager’s fault to not string-line that curve and make it a proper 22 degree curve with no kinks and with the correct gauge of 57” and install guard rails inside the outer rail and inside the inner rail. When you have a sharp curve and fear derailment, you rebuild and fix the track. Gauge is properly increased ¼” for each 10 degree of curvature. If they do derail, or maybe they already have tried it and did derail, they need to do the cheap and quick job of correcting the gauge in the curve and add the guard rails in the curve. There is nothing wrong with the locomotive if it did not manage both locations. If they did these tests in daylight under steam they may develop too much of a crowd and violate some medical rules, so the idea is to sneak out and check out Frostburg in secret. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/20 09:19 by PlyWoody. Date: 08/14/20 17:55 Re: C&O 1309 Author: HotWater PlyWoody Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The manager of the WMS is the stingiest person in > the tourist train industry. If you don’t pay, > you’re not entitled to find out what is > happening. We expect the next move will be a 4 > am work train to shove the 1309 engine up to > Frostburg and see how well it will go on to the > turntable, which should be no problem. The PRR > called for 1200’ radius vertical curve for > locomotives over a hump. If necessary the rails > could be humped on the turntable to ease the grade > change. > > But the rumor was there was fear the engine would > derail on the lead into the station platform > because it has a reported 22.5 degree curve, and > the locomotive is designed only for 22 degree > maximum curve. Yes, and if it derails they will > ban the locomotive but it is not the locomotive > design fault if the pilot wheel comes off. It is > the manager’s fault to not string-line that > curve and make it a proper 22 degree curve with no > kinks and with the correct gauge of 57” and > install guard rails inside the outer rail and > inside the inner rail. When you have a sharp > curve and fear derailment, you rebuild and fix the > track. Gauge is properly increased ¼” for > each 10 degree of curvature. If they do derail, > or maybe they already have tried it and did > derail, they need to do the cheap and quick job of > correcting the gauge in the curve and add the > guard rails in the curve. There is nothing wrong > with the locomotive if it did not manage both > locations. > > If they did these tests in daylight under steam > they may develop too much of a crowd and violate > some medical rules, so the idea is to sneak out > and check out Frostburg in secret. So,,,,,,,,as I've asked previously, have you made an appointment to meet with Gary Bensman in order to actually visit the site in question? Do you have any actual experience with any articulated steam locomotives? You obviously have all the answers, so I would assume that Gary and all the rest of the WMSR personnel would welcome you. Date: 08/15/20 03:55 Re: C&O 1309 Author: BKLJ611 HotWater Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > PlyWoody Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The manager of the WMS is the stingiest person > in > > the tourist train industry. If you don’t > pay, > > you’re not entitled to find out what is > > happening. We expect the next move will be a > 4 > > am work train to shove the 1309 engine up to > > Frostburg and see how well it will go on to the > > turntable, which should be no problem. The > PRR > > called for 1200’ radius vertical curve for > > locomotives over a hump. If necessary the > rails > > could be humped on the turntable to ease the > grade > > change. > > > > But the rumor was there was fear the engine > would > > derail on the lead into the station platform > > because it has a reported 22.5 degree curve, > and > > the locomotive is designed only for 22 degree > > maximum curve. Yes, and if it derails they > will > > ban the locomotive but it is not the locomotive > > design fault if the pilot wheel comes off. It > is > > the manager’s fault to not string-line that > > curve and make it a proper 22 degree curve with > no > > kinks and with the correct gauge of 57” and > > install guard rails inside the outer rail and > > inside the inner rail. When you have a sharp > > curve and fear derailment, you rebuild and fix > the > > track. Gauge is properly increased ¼” for > > each 10 degree of curvature. If they do > derail, > > or maybe they already have tried it and did > > derail, they need to do the cheap and quick job > of > > correcting the gauge in the curve and add the > > guard rails in the curve. There is nothing > wrong > > with the locomotive if it did not manage both > > locations. > > > > If they did these tests in daylight under steam > > they may develop too much of a crowd and > violate > > some medical rules, so the idea is to sneak out > > and check out Frostburg in secret. > > > So,,,,,,,,as I've asked previously, have you made > an appointment to meet with Gary Bensman in order > to actually visit the site in question? Do you > have any actual experience with any articulated > steam locomotives? You obviously have all the > answers, so I would assume that Gary and all the > rest of the WMSR personnel would welcome you. Yea, I’m not sure what any of this nonsense is about. There has been so much bad information about this project especially because of a certain Facebook group and the internet in general. Posts like this aren’t helpful. Posted from iPhone Date: 08/15/20 03:58 Re: C&O 1309 Author: PlyWoody NO! No! - I don’t intend to travel, and No I don’t have all the answers. The manager of the WMS oblivious has liminted engineering experience because they have an engineer firm as a contractor and the County will not pay him to even make a simple top-of-rail-profile leading up to the turntable. The County was informed two years ago there may be a problem.
I do not have the height of rail 150’ or 200’ away from the turntable but if I did, I could tell what was safe for the locomotive to progress. Anyone could set up a bright flash light on the far end of the turntable and set up a light shield with the same height on the near end of TT and at 200’ away see the elevation of the flashlight rays and measure its height above the track. A very cheap method without paying any engineering firm to develop answers. I worked years with a Resident Engineer, then Division Engineers, and later was an Office Engineer for a Chief Regional Engineer and did a lot of engineer work just by the eye. I suggested they mark the rail every 31 feet and using a level instrument take reading and make a profile. I also suggested they mark the curved track every 31 feet and using a 62’ long chord or string, measure the center of the chord for its off-set to the rail to view the true curvature of that sharp curve and fix it’s gage because of its sharpness, and add guard rails. Each inch of offset equals a degree.. Wikipedia and several locomotive experts I know can not tell me the vertical curve limit that were designed into steam locomotives, or that mallet locomotive. The PRR 1200’ radius VC would have the pilot and trail axle 2” lower while center drives were 2” higher than the center average suspension. Has anyone ever seen the design specification for any steam locomotive VC design limits? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/20 15:11 by PlyWoody. Date: 08/15/20 05:33 Re: C&O 1309 Author: wcamp1472 From above: "Each inch of
> offset equals a degrees."... WHAT? Clarification, please? W. Date: 08/15/20 06:02 Re: C&O 1309 Author: Keystone1 Well........turntable or no turntable....I hope the locomotive at least is test steamed and run this year. . It can always back down the hill tender first. Plenty of short lines ran like that daily.
Date: 08/15/20 06:52 Re: C&O 1309 Author: choodude wcamp1472 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > From above: "Each inch of offset equals a degrees."... > WHAT? > > Clarification, please? I love you Wes, but us grubby peons working on the tracks have some magic, just like you Lords up in the engines. Look up "String line a railroad curve" First a couple grubby peons put marks every 31 feet on the outside rail - numbered and called stations. Some folks never get the hang of writing numbers on the rail while stooping over. Lol. Basically three people use two "paddles" that will hold a string one inch away from the rail head and a ruler specially marked with zero one inch from the rail head, then marked in eighth inches from the zero A 62 foot string is the most common length to use because if the string is an additional one inch away (that's the Offset) from the rail at the center of a 62 foot chord that means the track has a one degree curve. The crew walk along the curve and measure where the string falls on the ruler at each station. The closer the offset numbers are to the numbers from adjacent stations, the smoother the curvature is. There's an art to the calculations for how much to line the track at each station to get a smooth ride, since banging the track sideways at one station will affect to offset at adjacent stations. Yea there's computer programs for that now, many are built into the surfacing equipment the big track gangs use. Brian Date: 08/15/20 07:44 Re: C&O 1309 Author: SR_Krause I absolutely love seeing methods like this used! Take simple geometry and convert it into a highly accurate and useful work method. Carpenters have a lot of techniques along this line too - it's all simple high school geometry when you come down to it, and it doesn't take 5 guys writing software programs to do it!
A little context on that last. I manage a group that writes control software. What I'm always envious of in a human craftsman is the ability to look forward and backward and anticipate things in time and distance. That tamping machine only knows "right now", and doesn't know the specific oddities of what is coming, say, 50 yards down the track. But a smart operator with a pair of eyeballs that's coupled up with good automation tools? That's a combination that can't be beat! but that operator has to have learned to do it the way you're describing, he has to understand the planning method. Fun stuff! SRK choodude Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > wcamp1472 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > From above: "Each inch of offset equals a > degrees."... > > > WHAT? > > > > Clarification, please? > > > I love you Wes, but us grubby peons working on the > tracks have some magic, just like you Lords up in > the engines. > > Look up "String line a railroad curve" > > First a couple grubby peons put marks every 31 > feet on the outside rail - numbered and called > stations. Some folks never get the hang of > writing numbers on the rail while stooping over. > Lol. > > Basically three people use two "paddles" that will > hold a string one inch away from the rail head and > a ruler specially marked with zero one inch from > the rail head, then marked in eighth inches from > the zero A 62 foot string is the most common > length to use because if the string is an > additional one inch away (that's the Offset) from > the rail at the center of a 62 foot chord that > means the track has a one degree curve. > > The crew walk along the curve and measure where > the string falls on the ruler at each station. > The closer the offset numbers are to the numbers > from adjacent stations, the smoother the curvature > is. There's an art to the calculations for how > much to line the track at each station to get a > smooth ride, since banging the track sideways at > one station will affect to offset at adjacent > stations. Yea there's computer programs for that > now, many are built into the surfacing equipment > the big track gangs use. > > Brian Steve Krause Chillicothe, IL Date: 08/15/20 08:39 Re: C&O 1309 Author: nathansixchime Keystone1 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Ok.......not much going on. So what is really > happening with the C&O. 1309? If only there was...a way to find out. From late July, on the Scenic's website: Emery Trust grants $50,000 toward finishing 1309 restoration https://wmsr.com/2020/07/emery-trust-grants-50000-toward-finishing-1309-restoration/ 1309 restoration nears end https://wmsr.com/2020/07/1309-restoration-nears-end/ "As of this writing, work on 1309 is nearly 95% complete and we have just received a generous grant from the Emery Rail Heritage Trust for $50,000. The locomotive is being reassembled and has recently undergone another test fire in preparation for a return to service later this year. We invite you to visit a comprehensive list of everything done to 1309 to return it to service at wmsr.com/1309." Air pumps undergoing tests: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2787844688101990 List of remaining work from the website:
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/20 08:44 by nathansixchime. Date: 08/15/20 08:46 Re: C&O 1309 Author: PlyWoody wcamp1472 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > From above: "Each inch of > > offset equals a degrees."... > WHAT? > > Clarification, please? > > W. The 62' long chord or string will cause the off-set at the center of chord at each 31 foot station measured in inches will correspond with the degree of curve measured by the angle of a 100' chord from tangent. It is just a convenient way to measure or create a curve without using a survey instrument. https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,4617220,4617220#msg-4617220 Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/20 09:12 by PlyWoody. Date: 08/15/20 08:59 Re: C&O 1309 Author: robert162 Is that damage to the boiler jacketing something of concern? look about the area where it was lifted.
Date: 08/15/20 09:13 Re: C&O 1309 Author: nathansixchime 'Tis only sheet metal.
Date: 08/15/20 10:13 Re: C&O 1309 Author: NKP779 The 62 foot tape works very well in checking the degree of curvature for NKP 765. On any wyes where it was even close, the curve was independently checked my myself, months in advance of even announcing ticket sales. The biggest surprise was the Sugar Street interchange between the former PRR and DT&I in Lima. Railroad records showed it to be 20 degrees- the official limit for a NKP 700. However, stringlining (62' tape) showed there to be a 26 degree kink in the curve. Loaded tankers from the Lima refinery, always being handled in the same direction, had shoved the track way out of alignment! It would be asking for trouble to try to deadhead the 765 through there. It never happened for other reasons, so double checking in the field could be of huge importance.
Posted from Android Date: 08/15/20 12:00 Re: C&O 1309 Author: wcamp1472 > From above: "Each inch of
> > offset equals a degrees."... From earlier...the question was related to grammatical confusion.... Each inch of offset equals HOW MANY DEGREES? Yes, while working for the CRIP, the D&H, the RF&P, I did many curve verifications and helping out the track guys and during derailment investigations... been there, done that, got the chiggers to prove it.. I was hoping that the author would be more clear --- for the novices and others that read these posts. The math of the string length is crucial for reflecting the calculations ... if each inch represents 1-degree of curvature ...then the term used: "degrees" is ambiguous and leaves open the question ...."How many degrees?" I am presuming that he meant to say that each inch of offset equals the same number of degrees of curvature.." Sorry for the nit-picking.. W. Date: 08/16/20 17:21 Re: C&O 1309 Author: wmbrakeman I know it has to be a Difficult job trying to make it all work , But that is One Downfall I see with WMSRR , Communication is very poor , I have not recieved any e mails for probably year or so , what cost is there to E mail ,
Take Kentucky Steam last month , I got a great Video Message Last Month Showing and talking about what there doing and showing you the property and engine and how the Money being spent , what corporation has reached out to Help them , and just saying Thank You By doing that they have people that will donate a little more if possible during this difficult time , Or will upgrade next time on the renewel of membership , So WM needs a person that will be a good P R person , It not easy job being the Chief B S er , Cumberland needs 1309 to be succesful , and all of us rail fans want them to be , But also same time I want and you want to be updated as to where money going and progress show me |