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Date: 02/27/21 17:25
4449 on the Preamble Express 1974
Author: ssloansjca

It is NOT Thursday, September 5, 1974, SP 4449 is NOT leading the Preamble Express but is near El Camino Ave. in Sacramento, CA.
According to good sources, including Guy L. Dunscomb's, A Century of Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives as well as Diebert & Strapac's SP Steam Locomotive Compendium, SP 4449 was built in May 1941 by Lima as a model GS-4, builders number 7817, SP 4449, SP Class GS-4. In September 1956 the locomotive was pulled from Storage by SP and donated to the City of Portland. This locomotive is currently owned by the City of Portland, Oregon.

REVISED CAPTION: SP 4449 is leading some passenger cars  on June 21, 1975 on the way to Sacramento, CA, photo near El Camino Ave. in Sacramento, CA.  Reportedly on June 22nd, 4449 was displayed with SP Bicentennial diesel SSW 9389 and steam locomotive CP Huntington. When the locomotive left Sacramento 6/23 it was pulling three SP passenger cars.
According to good sources, including Guy L. Dunscomb's, A Century of Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives as well as Diebert & Strapac's SP Steam Locomotive Compendium, SP 4449 was built in May 1941 by Lima as a model GS-4, builders number 7817, SP 4449, SP Class GS-4. In September 1956 the locomotive was pulled from Storage by SP and donated to the City of Portland. This locomotive is currently owned by the City of Portland, Oregon.

Steve Sloan
San José, CA
--
Scanned from a print.

EDITS: Corrected date and corrected facts that I got wrong. Thanks for the comments and corrections folks. I miss remembered this and tried to reconstruct the details from notes posted on the Internet. I am sorry.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/21 11:16 by ssloansjca.




Date: 02/27/21 17:42
Re: 4449 on the Preamble Express 1974
Author: HotWater

Something is not quite right with your information. There is no way that your photo is of the "Preamble Express", as that train consist operated with a UP E Unit, painted in the "Preamble Express" paint scheme. The photo looks more like the SP short passenger consist that accompanied 4449 on her move eastward toward Chicago, for temporary storage within the EMD McCook, Illinois plant, prior to the freedom train's arrival in Chicago.



Date: 02/27/21 20:13
Re: 4449 on the Preamble Express 1974
Author: MojaveBill

When 4449 came through Mojave it was heading the Freedom Train, not those cars...

Bill Deaver
Mojave, CA



Date: 02/27/21 20:33
Re: 4449
Author: timz

Wasn't June 1975 the first appearance
of 4449 in Sacramento?



Date: 02/27/21 21:58
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

Where, exactly, was 4449 in September of 1974?

W




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/21 21:58 by wcamp1472.



Date: 02/27/21 22:41
Re: 4449
Author: weather

Wes and Jack,  You are absolutly right, its June 18th, 1975 and it looks like the West Valley Line, long shadows, probably around Woodland for overnight in Sacramento.  Mike Pechner, AFT Volunteer, SP-UP Norden Weatherman.



Date: 02/27/21 23:13
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

From the Wikipedia entry..

"4449 was removed from display on December 13, 1974 and restored at the Burlington Northern Railroad's Hoyt Street roundhouse in Portland. The locomotive returned to operation on April 21, 1975 wearing a special paint scheme of red, white and blue.[9"

As further information..

W.


 



Date: 02/28/21 02:06
Re: 4449
Author: steamfan759

Yes, this is NOT the Preamble Express.  My brother was on the Preamble Express for its complete tour of the country.  As noted it was pulled by a UP E9 and a GE U-boat for part of its run.  It was never pulled by steam!!!

Ron



Date: 02/28/21 05:57
Re: 4449
Author: Bob3985

Preamble Express used the UP's 951 in the red, white and blue scheme.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY



Date: 02/28/21 07:03
Re: 4449
Author: ssloansjca

Thanks for the comments and corrections folks. I miss remembered this and tried to reconstruct the details from notes posted on the Internet. I am sorry.

~Steve



Date: 02/28/21 07:22
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

I've found that I mis-remember a lot of stuff, from " Long ago and far away..."
I'm getting used to it, tho.

Luckily, I mostly remember the GOOD stuff... like Ross, Don Smith, Doyle, Andy , Russ, Al,
Joe, Pop Moses, the Muldowneys,  JJJ, Scott L, George H., Ben  K., Conneaut,
Roanoke, Comminipaw, Hagerstown, Baltimore, York, Pa., Riverside, Vt.  ---

Locos: 1286,1238, 972, 1251,759, 2102, 4449, 1218, 614....
All the members of members of The 'A' Team.

W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/21 08:03 by wcamp1472.



Date: 02/28/21 17:42
Re: 4449
Author: OliveHeights

Sure, since when can anyone return a steam locomotive to service in 4 months? I think it is a ten year project now. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. 😜

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the Wikipedia entry..
>
> "4449 was removed from display on December 13,
> 1974 and restored at the Burlington Northern
> Railroad's Hoyt Street roundhouse in Portland. The
> locomotive returned to operation on April 21, 1975
> wearing a special paint scheme of red, white and
> blue.[9"
>
> As further information..
>
> ​W.
>
>  



Date: 02/28/21 17:45
Re: 4449
Author: HotWater

OliveHeights Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sure, since when can anyone return a steam
> locomotive to service in 4 months? I think it is a
> ten year project now. Yes, I'm being sarcastic.
> 😜


You are obviously overlooking the financial investment behind the American Freedom Train!


> wcamp1472 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > From the Wikipedia entry..
> >
> > "4449 was removed from display on December 13,
> > 1974 and restored at the Burlington Northern
> > Railroad's Hoyt Street roundhouse in Portland.
> The
> > locomotive returned to operation on April 21,
> 1975
> > wearing a special paint scheme of red, white
> and
> > blue.[9"
> >
> > As further information..
> >
> > ​W.
> >
> >  



Date: 02/28/21 19:41
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

The current boiler inspection rules are more vigorous in requiring 
'Traceable' testing and the generation of current pressure calculations.

Back then, with boilers in good shape with NO visible defects, and a 
qualifying hydrostatic test, together with 'certified' pressue calculations ---
upon application to the FRA, you could apply for a 1-year extension to delay
the removal of flues and tubes --- followed by a complete boiler-shell interior
inspection.

After a boiler explosion on the Gettysburg RR, 1994(?), the FRA and the ASME and 
KEY steam loco operators met as a committee and brought the inspection process
to a more current level,  ensuring evaluation inspections & reports that are credible
and valid.  They moved the boiler certification responsibilities from FRA,  to the ASME.

The upgraded rules mean that current loco boilers are structurally of higher integrity.
We're ALL glad for that.

in today's environment it's more difficult to see the return of steam to main line
excursions.  The 'electronics signaling' requirements are becoming financially,
very expensive, and RRs are more reluctant to allow streamers to roam freely..

in the 4449's case, in 1974, the key factor was BoilerMaker Joe Karal, Doyle's mentor,
and his thorough exam of the exterior of the shell, the interior and his years of experience.  
When tthe FRA's inspectors checked out the loco, they were acting on the request from
the BN to certify that the boiler was safe , and could satisfy safety  concerns justifying a
1-year extension on flue removal...

Rdg 2101 was rebuilt and never used, back in '57/58 at Reading Shops...she was a true
'zero mileage' engine when Ross bought 2100 & 2101 ( for AFT'suse) at Striegel's in Baltimore.

All this was BEFORE 1994's boiler explosion near Gettysburg, Pa. ( the cause was the
inexperienced  crew allowing the firebox crown sheet to be dry, with water 6" below
the top of the crown...   
Crew error caused the explosion, not a boiler structural failure  ..
No "1472-day rules". can prevent willful neglect of proper boiler water levels.)

Joe Karal and his expertise and 'political skills' were the key reason that the FRA granted
BN the original flue-time extension.  Since then, 4449;has received continuous improvements,
up grades and complying 15-year boiler shell inspections, including ultra-sound surveys,  
and current re-calculations, based  on the current actual dimensions and boiler operating pressure.

Joe's personal influence skills were considerable --- because he assured the inspecting professionals 
that he would take personal responsibility for complying with all future inspections and testing...
He also convinced the BN boiler supervision, as well as the FRA inspectors that he knew what he was doing.
The highest technical skills and his great confidence, coupled with his obeiscent demeanor, gave him 
great credibility. He could take your breath away, with how he could wrap other gruff, competitive "boiler experts"
around his finger.. It was scary, how good he was.

He transferred his confidence as the most competent boiler maker, at work on any locomotives in the
Country, at that time.  Also, Joe had worked with Doyle and other FRA Iinspectors, back in Ohio,
and was a  'known' authority even up to the highest levels of the FRA, in Washington.
 He was THAT good..

Folks of that level of boiler skills are gone, now; , but new, younger folks are getting better at it.
Their reputations are growing;  thus, a good thing.

The real Benefit of the 1472-day boiler shell inspections, is the fact that it provides more frequent 
tube removals and replacements---  as a 'current skill-set' for keeping crews' muscle-memory
fine-tuned, practiced & excercised, and that knowledge gets 'spread-around' to the younger crowd..
Skillfully removing, rolling and welding boiler tubes, takes lots of practice and continual self-improvement. 


W.
 



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/21 20:11 by wcamp1472.



Date: 02/28/21 20:08
Re: 4449
Author: jbwest

As I remember it this was basically a deadhead move to get the engine back east to meet up with the Freedom Train.  I remember chasing it south from Portland and east to Reno.  This a picture heading south near Andesite in northern California. But I can sure sympathize with the caption info issues.  I have any number of pix from many years ago that I have very little idea of the details....one of the challenges of the "autumn years".  The good news is there are plenty of folks here who can help fill in the details if given a chance.

JBWX



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/21 22:12 by jbwest.




Date: 02/28/21 20:14
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

What A Beauty!

W.
 



Date: 02/28/21 21:20
Re: 4449
Author: weather

Hey Steve, no sweat on the Preamble dates. Your Photography spesks for itself.



Date: 03/01/21 10:48
Re: 4449
Author: Earlk

ummm.  So, Wes, from this I get that 4449 went into Freedom Train service with the flues that the SP had installed in the 1950's?  In getting a flue extension of one year (the standard thing back then), she would have needed another extension mid-tour on the Freedom Train.

Whe I went to work for the Cumbres & Toltec in the ear;y 1980's, flue extensions was an everyday fact of life.  Most of the time we had half the operating fleet running on extensions.  One locomotive got 9 (NINE!) extensions before the Federal man told us we really ought to re-tube her.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The current boiler inspection rules are more
> vigorous in requiring 
> 'Traceable' testing and the generation of current
> pressure calculations.
>
> Back then, with boilers in good shape with NO
> visible defects, and a 
> qualifying hydrostatic test, together with
> 'certified' pressue calculations ---
> upon application to the FRA, you could apply for a
> 1-year extension to delay
> the removal of flues and tubes --- followed by a
> complete boiler-shell interior
> inspection.
>
> After a boiler explosion on the Gettysburg RR,
> 1994(?), the FRA and the ASME and 
> KEY steam loco operators met as a committee and
> brought the inspection process
> to a more current level,  ensuring evaluation
> inspections & reports that are credible
> and valid.  They moved the boiler certification
> responsibilities from FRA,  to the ASME.
>
> The upgraded rules mean that current loco boilers
> are structurally of higher integrity.
> We're ALL glad for that.
>
> in today's environment it's more difficult to see
> the return of steam to main line
> excursions.  The 'electronics signaling'
> requirements are becoming financially,
> very expensive, and RRs are more reluctant to
> allow streamers to roam freely..
>
> in the 4449's case, in 1974, the key factor was
> BoilerMaker Joe Karal, Doyle's mentor,
> and his thorough exam of the exterior of the
> shell, the interior and his years of experience.
>  
> When tthe FRA's inspectors checked out the loco,
> they were acting on the request from
> the BN to certify that the boiler was safe , and
> could satisfy safety  concerns justifying a
> 1-year extension on flue removal...
>
> Rdg 2101 was rebuilt and never used, back in
> '57/58 at Reading Shops...she was a true
> 'zero mileage' engine when Ross bought 2100 & 2101
> ( for AFT'suse) at Striegel's in Baltimore.
>
> All this was BEFORE 1994's boiler explosion near
> Gettysburg, Pa. ( the cause was the
> inexperienced  crew allowing the firebox crown
> sheet to be dry, with water 6" below
> the top of the crown...   Crew error caused the
> explosion, not a boiler structural failure  ..
> No "1472-day rules". can prevent willful neglect
> of proper boiler water levels.)
>
> Joe Karal and his expertise and 'political skills'
> were the key reason that the FRA granted
> BN the original flue-time extension.  Since
> then, 4449;has received continuous improvements,
> up grades and complying 15-year boiler shell
> inspections, including ultra-sound surveys,  
> and current re-calculations, based  on the
> current actual dimensions and boiler operating
> pressure.
>
> Joe's personal influence skills were considerable
> --- because he assured the inspecting
> professionals 
> that he would take personal responsibility for
> complying with all future inspections and
> testing...
> He also convinced the BN boiler supervision, as
> well as the FRA inspectors that he knew what he
> was doing.
> The highest technical skills and his great
> confidence, coupled with his obeiscent demeanor,
> gave him 
> great credibility. He could take your breath away,
> with how he could wrap other gruff, competitive
> "boiler experts"
> around his finger.. It was scary, how good he
> was.
>
> He transferred his confidence as the most
> competent boiler maker, at work on any locomotives
> in the
> Country, at that time.  Also, Joe had worked with
> Doyle and other FRA Iinspectors, back in Ohio,
> and was a  'known' authority even up to the
> highest levels of the FRA, in Washington.
>  He was THAT good..
>
> Folks of that level of boiler skills are gone,
> now; , but new, younger folks are getting better
> at it.
> Their reputations are growing;  thus, a good
> thing.
>
> The real Benefit of the 1472-day boiler shell
> inspections, is the fact that it provides more
> frequent 
> tube removals and replacements---  as a 'current
> skill-set' for keeping crews' muscle-memory
> fine-tuned, practiced & excercised, and that
> knowledge gets 'spread-around' to the younger
> crowd..
> Skillfully removing, rolling and welding boiler
> tubes, takes lots of practice and continual
> self-improvement. 
>
>
> W.
>  



Date: 03/01/21 10:59
Re: 4449
Author: HotWater

Earlk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ummm.  So, Wes, from this I get that 4449 went
> into Freedom Train service with the flues that the
> SP had installed in the 1950's?  In getting a
> flue extension of one year (the standard thing
> back then), she would have needed another
> extension mid-tour on the Freedom Train.

To my knowledge, 4449 received ALL NEW tubes & flues during her restoration there in Portland, over the winter of 1975/1975. That was one of the reasons that Joe Karol (sp) was there.

> Whe I went to work for the Cumbres & Toltec in the
> ear;y 1980's, flue extensions was an everyday fact
> of life.  Most of the time we had half the
> operating fleet running on extensions.  One
> locomotive got 9 (NINE!) extensions before the
> Federal man told us we really ought to re-tube
> her.

 



Date: 03/01/21 11:20
Re: 4449
Author: wcamp1472

That's more accurate account of what actually got 
done in Portland, before the AFT days.

Thanks for clearing that-up.

W.



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