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Date: 03/31/21 17:08
Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: MacBeau

Among the treasures of the Detroit Photographic Company sequestered in the Library of Congress are numerous scenes of late 19th early 20th Century steam. Offed as an example is this image taken in Scanton, Pennsylvania. The LOC gives a date range of 1890-1901, but the builder's date of 1898 on this Brooks 4-8-0 narrows that down more than a little. Interesting minor difference between the two in class light placement. 

Be of good cheer,
—Mac
www.lowellamrine.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/21 18:19 by MacBeau.




Date: 03/31/21 17:45
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: EMD2024

It looks more like a 4-8-0 to me. A pilot wheel is behind the cylinder.

MWPerkins

Posted from Android



Date: 03/31/21 18:02
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: wcamp1472

Agreed..
4-8-0....

W.



Date: 03/31/21 18:18
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: MacBeau

Bad eyes, thanks for the catch. Looked at the builder's date too much.
—Mac

EMD2024 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It looks more like a 4-8-0 to me. A pilot wheel is
> behind the cylinder.
>
> MWPerkins
>
> Posted from Android



Date: 03/31/21 19:03
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: patd3985

I could never figure out the reason for the "Camelback" locomotive design. It would seem to me that the fireman would like to see what the Engr. was doing and vice-versa! And if nothing else, have someone to talk to. ( Any Camelback experts & admirers are welcome to chime in here with their explanations.) Thanx,..............Pat



Date: 03/31/21 19:08
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: SeaboardMan

Notice that there are no tie plates but a cool photo.
john



Date: 03/31/21 19:33
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: rkennedy2

Think the design was becuase of the giant Wooten firebox dimensions.  The large grate area.



Date: 03/31/21 22:18
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: ajax247

That's a great picture!



Date: 04/01/21 07:48
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: atsf121

ajax247 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a great picture!

Agreed

Posted from iPhone



Date: 04/01/21 09:53
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: LarryDoyle

patd3985 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could never figure out the reason for the
> "Camelback" locomotive design. It would seem to me
> that the fireman would like to see what the Engr.
> was doing and vice-versa!

Do Not feel sorry for the fireman of a Camelback.  They had EXACTLY the same accomodations as the fireman on 'most any other locomotive built in the last quarter of the 19th century, as evidenced by this photo of a typical "Deckless Cab" engine of the period.  In both cases the firemans working position is out in the open, standing on the deck of the front of the tender.  And, the anthricite these engines burned was not as demanding to fire as the bituminus used on narrow firebox engines.

> And if nothing else,
> have someone to talk to.

There's not a lot of idle chatter in a steam locomotive cab.  Too noisy.  But it's a NICE noise.

-LD




Date: 04/01/21 11:16
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: wcamp1472

Later camelbacks, with ‘butterfly’
fire doors, were fitted with two sets of fire doors.

Anthracite fires do NOT spread laterallly... to be successful you gotta add new fuel directly on the embers... So, reaching the rear corners of the grates, was difficult
on camelbacks.

The 2 sets of ‘doors’ made reaching
the rear corners more easily.
( Butterfly fire doors had pivot pins
at the top, and the two doors swung
apart by almost 50 degrees, angle.
They were air -cylinder, pressure operated, with a foot treadle on the floor)

Atlantics and 2-8-0s commonly had
Grates of 100 sq. ft. The heat of hard-coal firebeds was primarily
‘Radiant’ heat. The flames were mostly deep red, with wisps of blue.

The draft rates through the firebeds
were low, compared to small grate
draft rates of soft coal, then more common.

Anthracite used in locos was typically the taiings from the breakers. The ‘sized’ coal was marketable, The small stuff and dust was wasted, was discarded—- so RRs wanted to find a way to burn
‘waste fuel’ in locos... over many years trying, they found the ‘formula’... grate area, boilers, cylinders and drivers..

But, Anthracite was best suited to small sized Locos..

Firing was all about proper firebed
Construction and 100% active grate area. Once built, a fireman could rest for extended periods.

George Hart, 1930’s rail fan photographer, tells of ‘contests’
among READING crews of making the passenger runs from Philadelphia to Jersey City WITHOUT adding any Anthracite fuel, complete with several station stops...

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/21 11:30 by wcamp1472.



Date: 04/01/21 16:49
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: Sp1110

Will the FRA allow you to build a main line track without any tie plates?

Does that increase wear and tear on the ties?



Date: 04/01/21 17:20
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: HotWater

Sp1110 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will the FRA allow you to build a main line track
> without any tie plates?

Why would any railroad WANT TO?????  Note that the photo is from the very early 1900s, well prior to the FRA.


> Does that increase wear and tear on the ties?


Yes, but technology may not have developed that far way back then, i.e. well over 120 years ago. Plus, railroad cars and locomotives were not all that heavy way back then.



Date: 04/04/21 12:38
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: AMTRUK

Is the 807 equipped with retrofit piston valve assemblies? I don't see them on the other 2 locos.

Luke

Posted from Android



Date: 04/04/21 13:04
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: wcamp1472

Could 807 be a 4 cylinder compound, with the sloped cylinder saddle?
What's that cylinder head, just behind the engineer's right ear?

W..



Date: 04/04/21 15:04
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: LarryDoyle

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Could 807 be a 4 cylinder compound, with the
> sloped cylinder saddle?

Yeah, Wes, I'd bet that all three of those engines are Baldwin 4 cylinder balanced compounds.  Close-ups of 807's and 811's cylinders attached.

> What's that cylinder head, just behind the
> engineer's right ear?

The valve chamber, above the (not visible) high pressure cylinder.

-LD

 








Date: 04/04/21 16:14
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: Evan_Werkema

rkennedy2 Wrote:

> Think the design was becuase of the giant Wooten
> firebox dimensions.  The large grate area.

There were also locomotives with Wootten fireboxes and conventional cabs, like the Reading T1's.  What was done differently on these engines that allowed this relative to engines built as Camelbacks?



Date: 04/04/21 16:23
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: wcamp1472

The primary change was the original 100 sq. ft. grate was converted 
to burn Bituminous coal .... and the grates were changed* to 
'finger grates".

In the conversion, they added Thermic syphons, a combustion chamber,
'cyclone' front-end,  Standard HT stoker, and a couple of new boiler sections
sandwiched-in.

Appled that up-graded boiler to all-new cast, one piece frames, a booster
equipped trailer truck,  and 100% new tenders.

W.

*( under the recent 'Whatzzit" discussion, see 'finger grates", at the bottom..of the list)
 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/21 16:28 by wcamp1472.



Date: 04/04/21 17:33
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: LarryDoyle

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> *( under the recent 'Whatzzit" discussion, see
> 'finger grates", at the bottom..of the list)
>  

One of these days we're gonna teach Wes how to post a link.
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,5227593

-LD



Date: 04/04/21 17:39
Re: Late 19th Century Camelbacks
Author: LarryDoyle

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There were also locomotives with Wootten fireboxes
> and conventional cabs, like the Reading T1's. 
> What was done differently on these engines that
> allowed this relative to engines built as
> Camelbacks?

A longer frame with a trailing truck allowed putting the cab behind the backhead, in the same way as with engines with conventional fireboxes.

-LD



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