Steam & Excursion > R 22 Freon Is Being Phased Out!

See the post from 9/17/21 about an AC failure on the CVSR Steam In The Valley trips with 765. https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,5324920  I work for a large HVAC company that is located in the Cleveland area and I pick up parts and supplies at most of the  HVAC warehouse locations on Northern Ohio. As of yesterday there was only one location that had any R22 Freon in stock and it was priced at  $925.00 for a 30 pound can. They had 100 cans at three different locations in the Cleveland area. I can name six other AC parts supply companies that do not have R 22 Freon, and some of those have outlets nationwide. R 22 Freon leaks in passenger cars are very difficult to locate and at around $1.70 an ounce to recharge a leaking system it is quite expensive. Many contractors in the Cleveland area are telling residential customers that they cannot service a system that uses R 22 and the whole system will have to be replaced. My own home which was built in 1987 uses R 22. In a passenger car replacing the whole system is extremely expensive and  this is becoming an issue for any organization which has AC equipped cars that do not have windows that open. It is a major problem for owners and operators of PV cars, and it will get worse as the remaining stock of R 22 Freon disappears from the market place. It is also very difficult to find a contractor or service person that is familiar with an AC system on a passenger car. I recently participated in the replacement of an AC compressor that uses R 22 on a PV car, (not a CVSR car), and the price for the Trans-Carrier 06D compressor was $5500.00.  When we got the compressor it did not have cylinder heads that had the ports for unloader valves. We had to wait for two weeks to get the compressor and we used the heads from a different compressor that had the unloader ports in them. Looking back at that repair we probably should have investigated replacing the whole system with something that uses refrigerant that is available. 



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/21 07:19 by trainsfireengine.

Back in 2014, my AC guy in southern CA advised me that this day was coming.  So we made the decision to change the refrigerant on the pv SILVER SPLENDOR to R134.  Yes it was expensive, but only by about 50% of what it would be today.  The changeover requires larger diameter piping between the compressor and the evaporator because R134 is less efficient per unit volume.  If someone wants to buy R22 right now, I would suggest going to Mexico where the climate change alarmists haven't ruled the day yet.  It's all crap now.

-John

 An hvac shop in denver got a pallet full of it a year ago or so ,  think by the next morning the whole pallet  50k  was gone and the shop closed for 3 days to investigate,  my father studied the upper atmosphere from the north pole to the south pole dragging me down to antartica, new zealand  and somoa  hawaii and california in the eighties, many CFC's were banned, aerosal cans, the beloved r-12, later r-22 has been deemed  to destructive to  the world, actually should have been banned earlier, but if you just take your PV's to india or china  perhaps you could service them.  There are a few substitutes  available , not sure if that would work, or a conversion kit, or just new equipment.  So perhaps if you have some contacts with organized crime you might be able to get some.

jcaestecker Wrote:
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> Back in 2014, my AC guy in southern CA advised me
> that this day was coming.  So we made the
> decision to change the refrigerant on the
> pv SILVER SPLENDOR to R134.  Yes it was
> expensive, but only by about 50% of what it would
> be today.  The changeover requires larger
> diameter piping between the compressor and the
> evaporator because R134 is less efficient per unit
> volume.  If someone wants to buy R22 right now, I
> would suggest going to Mexico where the climate
> change alarmists haven't ruled the day yet.  It's
> all crap now.
>

Try not to be an idiot if at all possible... R22 is a HCFC, one of the chemicals which shafts the ozone layer up the backside. It has been phased out for very good reason.

Well some people like their steaks  and bodies well done, I've always been a medium rare type guy

There is a replacement coolant available that can be used separatly or blended with R22, losing R22 is not the end of systems that use it.

R-22, retrofit using substitute refrigerants=small[edit]See also: Refrigerant § Notable blendsThe energy efficiency and system capacity of systems designed for R-22 is slightly greater using R-22 than the available substitutes.[11]R-407A is for use in low- and medium-temp refrigeration. Uses a polyolester (POE) oil.R-407C is for use in air conditioning. Uses a minimum of 20 percent POE oil.R-407F is for use in medium- and low-temperature refrigeration applications (supermarkets, cold storage, and process refrigeration); direct expansion system design only. Uses a POE oil.R-407H is for use in medium- and low-temperature refrigeration applications (supermarkets, cold storage, and process refrigeration); direct expansion system design only. Uses a POE oil.R-421A is for use in “air conditioning split systems, heat pumps, supermarket pak systems, dairy chillers, reach-in storage, bakery applications, refrigerated transport, self-contained display cabinets, and walk-in coolers.” Uses mineral oil (MO), Alkylbenzene (AB), and POE.R-422B is for use in low-, medium-, and high-temperature applications. It is not recommended for use in flooded applications.R-422C is for use in medium- and low-temperature applications. The TXV power element will need to be changed to a 404A/507A element and critical seals (elastomers) may need to be replaced.R-422D is for use in low-temp applications, and is mineral oil compatible.R-424A is for use in air conditioning as well as medium-temp refrigeration temperature ranges of 20 to 50˚F. It works with MO, alkylbenzenes (AB), and POE oils.R-427A is for use in air conditioning and refrigeration applications. It does not require all the mineral oil to be removed. It works with MO, AB, and POE oils.R-434A is for use in water cooled and process chillers for air conditioning and medium- and low-temperature applications. It works with MO, AB, and POE oils.R-438A (MO-99) is for use in low-, medium-, and high-temperature applications. It is compatible with all lubricants. [12]R-458A is for use in air conditioning and refrigeration applications, without capacity or efficiency loss. Works with MO, AB, and POE oils. [13]R-32 or HFC-32 (difluoromethane) is for use in air conditioning and refrigeration applications. it has zero ozone depletion potential (ODP) [2] and a global warming potential (GWP) index 675 times that of carbon dioxide. 

The subject line is extremely old news. 

The writing has been on the wall for CFC chemicals since the turn of the century.

jst3751 Wrote:
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> The subject line is extremely old news. 
>
> The writing has been on the wall for CFC chemicals for years.
jst 3751 is correctt about R-22 being phased out.  There s also considerble ignorance displayed in the other posts above.

First off I got my state electrician's and air conditioning licenses in 1991, and my EPA 40 CFR part 82 subpart F  (Universal Freon handling and purchase certificte) is dated Nov. 1, 1995. The last four digits of the certification number are 0571, the nine digits in front of it are the person's social security number, so I won't post it.

Has R-22 been being phased out for nearly 10 years?  Yes. Has R-134a been used as a replacement for R-12 for well over 20 years?  Yes. R-12 was used in cars and refrigerators for many years, was very hard on the Ozone layer, and only had about half the capacity of R-22.   R-134a  has only about half the capacity of R-22, and the same low working pressures as R-12., and has to use POE oil instead of MO.  The molecules of R-134a are smaller than those of R-22, so they will leak around the compressor shaft, and through the older O-rings in the  Freon hoses.  Because R-12 and then R134a only have half the capacity of R-22,  automotive compressors have about twice the cubic capacity of a comparably rated R-22 compressor.

So what does a QUALIFIED HVAC technician do with an R-22 system that needs a charge?  He buys R-407c which has 95% of the capacity of R-22, runs at the same pressures as R-22 so the pressure switches, and the expansion valves continue to work, and don't need to be replaced.   R-407c is forgiving about what oil it runs in, and will run well on half MO and half POE, so just drain the compressor and refill it with POE, and the compressor will run fire on the mix.  407c  is only about $400.00 for a 25 lb. cylinder last week.   There are several other R-22 replacements, one is called Nu-22, which is about 90% as efficient as 22, and runs without an oil change.

Nextly, the ASHRAE design standard for audience capacity is 400 BTU per person.  Electric resistance heat (heat given off by incandescent ights) is 3412 BTU per Kilowatt,   That means a 150 Watt bulb will give off 511 BTUper hour.

If a railcar or a building has to be run for two days to get cool, it will not be able to stay cool with a load of passengers in it, and the sun on it, somethig is really wrong..

Lastly, there is NO 220 Volt, or 440 Volt electricity in the United States or Canada, and hasn't been for about 80 years, since the frequency was increased fom 50 to 60 Hertz..  Low voltage is 208Volt, and high voltage is 480 Volts.
G
 

Can you put Butane in a R22 system as you can a R12 system?

Butane and Propane are both excellent refrigerants, they have good capacity,  run at reasonable pressures,  give good oil return with Mineral Oi,   are inexpensive to produce, and don't deplete the Ozone.

The only reason they aren't used today is because they are extremely FLAMMABLE.  In addition to being flammable, Propane and Butane are heavier than air, so a leak in a refrigeration room settles down where the motors and contactors are,  and either a fire or an explosion occurs.
G

Hey, Ross!

Hand me that bar-b-que propane tank....
I'll cool off that car in a jiffy!

Its just got a minor leak...somewhere!
I'll use my old air brake inspector's torch to see if I can find the leak!,

​W.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/21 16:34 by wcamp1472.

There are a huge amount of residential houses, etc. that use 220-240 VAC. 208 VAC sometimes comes off of what was termed split phase where the third leg voltage wouldd be anythere from 180 VAC up to 280 VAC so be careful where you hook up any electronics. All the above were measured with a Fluke 179 Multimeter.

Don Allender

Back in 2003, when I was on the USS Houston…we converted our R-12 plants to 134A…and we had tons of spare R-12 to get rid of. Chief told me to get rid of it…so I gave it to the HVAC shop at the shipyard…a couple 30 gallon bottles…”they were so thrilled”! They probably took it home and sold it…wish I had kept it for myself…but we were headed out to sea. My ‘92 Dodge W250 uses R-12 today…it’s a lot colder than 134…but…who needs to be that cold? Not worth it…

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jcaestecker Wrote:
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> the climate change alarmists haven't ruled the day yet.


"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to talk and remove all doubt.”


Destroying the Ozone Layer has absolutely nothing to do with Climate Change.

Brian

 " 'Tis better to keep your mouth shut, and have people think you're a fool...
    Than to open it and remove all doubt".

A. Lincoln 

​W.


 

"Destroying the Ozone Layer has absolutely nothing
> to do with Climate Change.""


I would suggest that damage to the ozone layer is a change in the climate...
It all depends on how broad your definition is, regarding the term 'climate change".

The damage to to be ozone layer was an agreed fact, decades ago, when the 
existing refrigerants  in fact depleting the ozone layer ....  the ozone layer is 
a barrier to a large percentage of UV radiation from the Sun.

It is a piece of our 'environment '

Wes Camp.

choodude Wrote:
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> Destroying the Ozone Layer has absolutely nothing
> to do with Climate Change.
>
> Brian

While the primary reason for climate change is the ever increasing quantity of humans inhabiting earth, human's causing problems with the ozone layer is indeed a factor, even if only a small one.

native south africans skin cancer rates climbed as the  south pole ozone hole encompasses them more often

What does this have to do with trains?