Steam & Excursion > American Steam Preservation Recently Getting Worse OR Better

Recently in the 2020s, is steam preservation in America getting worse or better? With steam restorations, mainline excursions, more extremely unique steamers operational since the late 50s, new excursions and new opportunities, anything. If Operating American Steam population is expanding and getting better, HOW? Thanks So Much.

Posted from iPhone

MiketheMikado Wrote:
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> Recently in the 2020s, is steam preservation in
> America getting worse or better? With steam
> restorations, mainline excursions, more extremely
> unique steamers operational since the late 50s,
> new excursions and new opportunities, anything.


What "new excursions and new opportunities"? Not a single class 1 railroad will tolerate ANY excursions, and Amtrak doesn't appear interested either. Then there is the liability insurance requirement issue.


If
> Operating American Steam population is expanding
> and getting better, HOW? Thanks So Much.
>
> Posted from iPhone

I think it's probably a matter of perspective. For people my age and older, we became accustomed to 1) small steam in tourist railroad service vs. 2) Big steam on class 1 exursions.  Today we still have big steam, but it is mainly enjoyed on regional and shortline railroads. In some cases thats like having a bull in a china shop but in other cases there isn't a whole lot of difference. Some of these opportunities are allowing for open windows, open vestibules and runbys which are excursion highlights that haven't been allowed on class 1s for decades. We've also got organizations thinking outside the box with throttle time, hostler experiences, photo charters, etc. which can be far more rewarding experiences for railfans than the typical big class 1 excursion where you might never see, much less hear, smell and touch the locomotive. About the only thing missing are high speed steam runs, but then again most of my most memorable experiences have been slow hard pulls or even sitting stationary just taking it all in. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of excursions on class 1s and I hope the current drought doesn't last forever, but we definitely have some good things going on.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/23 19:12 by bmoore765.

Let's all be honest.  We live in a society today where everyone is ready to take anyone, at anytime, to court for just about anything.  All big corporations, not just big railroads, are aware of this and all companies, including railroads, do not want any kind of liability issues.  They have enough problems right now with lawsuits over people trespassing onto their properties, getting injured even though they are trespassing, and they, the railroads, have to defend themselves.  Unfortunately, there are so many lawyers ready to pursue any and all cases, even when they know that the person they are defending got hurt by trespassing onto the private property of the railroad, and along with all of these shenanigans, today's juries are sympathetic to these perpetrators against the big bad railroads.  Also, there are many people who are against these big railroads because of derailments in the country where hazard chemicals have caused problems, case in point, the Norfolk Southern derailment in East Palestine, Ohio.  Then the public is angry with the big railroads over the many places where grade crossings are continuously blocked by freight trains, and believe me, many, many people are upset with the thought that these big railroads are putting profits first ahead of safety.  These are facts folks, I'm not making this up.  The general public today, with all the news broadcasting's and all the stories on the internet, overall, they are not happy with the major railroads today.
You and I may love trains and enjoy railroading in general; however, the average individual citizen, in many cases, does not feel the same way.  The bottom line for us is to enjoy excursion trips, whether steam or diesel, where they are being operated, and be thankful for those regional and short line operations that are willing to run a steam excursion period.
John in White Marsh, Maryland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/23 15:20 by ClubCar.

Technically, the state of steam is factually getting better, 
a lot different from the past.

I say that because so many recent restorations have turned out 
to be examples of superior crafting of boiler inspections, repairs, and replacements.

It is impressive to see the quality of some of the recent restorations.
It was the adoption of the updated boiler inspection periods,
ultra-sonic sheet thickness measurements ..... whch are to be used
to calculate the ( current) permissible maximum pressures.. 

In the past boiler status and maintenance was erratic, not followed,
or ignored.
So, in my experience, I'm impressed.

Another subtle factor is the numbers of new boiler technicians that 
have come on the scene.
 
To me,  the biggest advantage of the current 1472- day boiler 
re-certification requirements, is the increasing numbers of 
new folks that are becoming more skilled at steam loco preservation,
and operation. 

I attribute the success to the impact of the updated FRA 
steam loco rules and inspection regulations, adopted in
the year 2000.

Things reagarding steam loco safety and inspections are much better
in today's environment.

​W.

The professional suers out there do not help anything

What lawsuits affecting boilers, are subject of suits?
Which lawyers are profiting,  what boiler inspections,
and related  issues are you referring-to?

​W.

 

I grew up in Denver up to 1977 seeing UP 8444 on various excursion and seeing the narrow gauge in Colorado and New Mexico and was fortunate to ride the very first UP 3985 public excursion. Sure things are different today, but there are still big locomotives to experience. I really enjoyed my R&N 2102 ride with my grandson in July and WMSR 1309 last year. We’ve also experienced NKP 765 and N&W 611 a couple times. While these two aren’t blasting down a Class 1 mainline they are operating. There is the 576 in Nashville which I hope to see with my grandson. US Sugar 148 is a neat trip. And the guys in Silvis, RRHMA?, let’s see what they come up with. And as can be seen by the IOTD, the Grand Canyon 4960 puts on a pretty good show. So it may not be exactly the same as in years past, but big engines are running. Oh, and 630 and 4501 at the Tennessee Valley!


Randy In PHX

Posted from iPhone

On the mainline front, it's... pretty bleak, especially out west. The east coast has some great things going on with Reading 2102, and the NC&SL 576 and PRR 1361 coming down the pike. And,of course CP 2816 is making a comeback in a big way. On the tourist RR side, it seems like there's a lot of exciting things happening. The East Broad Top and Mount Rainier Scenic RR rising from the ashes are definite bright spots. It feels like the west coast steam operations took a beating starting in 2020. But MRSR is reinventing itself and making a comeback, there are whispers of an operator getting things rolling on the Chehalis-Centralia RR, Northwest Railway Museum seems to be powering out of its decades long slump, Oregon Coast Scenic RR has a lot of interesting things going on... so there's doom and gloom but there's also sunshine and roses.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/23 11:08 by A-1.

Ten years ago, I never would have dreamed of seeing a Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range steam locomotive in operation.  Ex-DM&IR 332 (later Duluth & Northeastern 28) was restored for operation on the North Shore Scenic Railroad in 2017.  I hasn't run the past year or two, but work continues to be performed on it.   I contributed funding for its restoration, but haven't yet made it to Duluth to see it or ride behind it.  I look forward to doing so when it returns to service.

From that perspective (as well as closer to where I live - the revival of the East Broad Top and the Class A Climax project in Corry, Penn) I'd say steam preservation is getting better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/23 03:30 by RuleG.

There is one big bright spot for mainline steam, though: that being the newly formed CPKC not only bringing now-ex-Canadian Pacific 2816 back to life, but also planning to run the first steam tour of three countries next year.

"Recently in the 2020s, is steam preservation in America getting worse or better?"

One thing has gotten a lot better since about 2000 or 2005 -- you can now find out which steam locomotives are running, where and when.  So if you want to see steam -- narrow gauge, tourist, secondary-mainline, UP or NS excursions, misc. rare excursions, you can do it!  

In the 1970s/80s/early 90s you'd need to subscribe to railfan magazines, get updates from rail societies.  Or, if you were lucky, read about something in your local newspaper. 

With the advent of the internet in about 1994 you could read about all sorts of oddball factoids and event notifications about railroads, which includes steam activity of all sorts.  
See, for example, 
https://groups.google.com/g/misc.transport.rail.americas/c/_gu06P5pFII/m/OkFGUWBH5yQJ
https://groups.google.com/g/misc.transport.rail.americas/c/osQfonl1jrk/m/zQOXl6xz3ngJ

Particulalry since the advent of Twitter/"X".  It used to be (in 2010) that if the SP 4449 or SP&S 700 was going to be going to Portland Union Station or the BNSF Vancouver Yards you might wait around all day for its ferry move.  Now you can get updates and head out with a tighter time window.  (Though I don't know if either of these ferry moves are made anymore -- for National Train Day, and BNSF Christmas parties?)  
For example, see 
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1824496

One thing I'm still a little unsatisfied with -- there's no basic "Active Steam This Weekend" sort of page on the internet.  Not that I've been able to find.  Or, "General schedules of Active Steam, based on geography."  

As an example -- a month ago I was in Garibaldi OR.  I knew there was a steam operation there, but I had no idea how often it ran.  Daily?  Weekends?  A few holidays during the year?  My friend and I arrived in town and stopped at the store for a few things, heard a steam whistle, and investigated.  The train was ready to highball, and it turns out it made 3 or 4 round trips *daily*.  So we watched it depart, and then watched it several more times at the northern terminus in Rockaway Beach, where our rentage cottage was convenitely located about 25' from a grade crossing ;^)  

If there was a web page or forum that listed all steam activities any weekend in the US, I'd probably have seen more steam in Oregon in my 15 years here.  Or a "Active Steam Wiki" with rough schedules of all steam operations in the US.  For example, with handier info, I might have gone to see the Garibaldi show years ago.  Several times, even.  As well as the Chehatlie Prairie, Mt. Rainer, maybe Brooks Heritage Park, which I still haven't seen.   

Ted in OR



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/23 19:08 by gobbl3gook.

> As an example -- a month ago I was in Garibaldi
> OR.  I knew there was a steam operation there,
> but I had no idea how often it ran.  Daily? 
> Weekends?  A few holidays during the year?  My
> friend and I arrived in town and stopped at the
> store for a few things, heard a steam whistle, and
> investigated.  The train was ready to highball,
> and it turns out it made 3 or 4 round trips
> *daily*. 

I hate to point out the obvious, but simply googling 'Garibaldi Oregon steam train' could've cleared that right up ;-)

Posted from Android

A-1 -- it isn't that easy.  

Have you tried it?  

Official website says trains will be pulled by steam or diesel.  (In my experience this usually means diesel). 

The Facebook page is regularly updated, but most of the content is special upcoming trips, a month or two out.  Very little with regard to day-to-day operations.  (A recent post says weekday steam trips are ending, but posts from August when I was there didn't indicate type of locomotive).  

Nothing here jumps out and says the default train makeup is "3 steam round trips daily, all summer long!"

Just noting.  

Ted in OR

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/23 11:06 by gobbl3gook.

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gobbl3gook Wrote:
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>As well as the Chehatlie Prairie, Mt.
> Rainer, maybe Brooks Heritage Park, which I still
> haven't seen.   
>
> Ted in OR

Ted, when you say "Brooks Heritage Park" I'm assuming you mean "Powerland Heritage Park". 
Powerland has a yearly major event called the "Great Oregon Steam-Up".  It is a must see for anyone interested in antique machinery.  The Steam-Up name is because there are many steam tractors, a steam sawmill and ex-SP Steam Crane operating.  But there are also too many other machinery things running to list here.  Check the website.  The Steam-Up happens every year on the last weekend of July and first weekend in August so plan for next year.  

gobbl3gook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A-1 -- it isn't that easy.  
>
> Have you tried it?  
>
> Official website says trains will be pulled by
> steam or diesel.  (In my experience this usually
> means diesel). 
>
> The Facebook page is regularly updated, but most
> of the content is special upcoming trips, a month
> or two out.  Very little with regard to
> day-to-day operations.  (A recent post says
> weekday steam trips are ending, but posts from
> August when I was there didn't indicate type of
> locomotive).  
>
> Nothing here jumps out and says the default train
> makeup is "3 steam round trips daily, all summer
> long!"
>
> Just noting.  
>
> Ted in OR
>

I tried it a few years ago when trying to decide what part of the coast to spend the weekend on. I just called the number in their contact info and got an immediate answer.

Posted from Android

"Club Car" cited half of the big problem with main line steam operations: liability exposure.
I think the other half is the investor/financier mind set of the Class 1s, where every instantaneous action has to produce improved earnings, or at least improve "metrics".
Corporate directors and officers simply do not have the freedom to anything less.  
This may be a slight exaggeration but if an action does not favorably impress financial analysts, who can then recommend "buy" for stock why do it?
Capitalism needs investors and can only get investors who see a profit potential, either earnings or capital gains (buy the stock low, sell high).

It isn't just the risk of a big crash, but the small claims that create risk to the point insurance companies need to charge a lot of money to pay for the expected claims that will come in. In most cases a one off excursion with all the risk is not worth the trouble to the carrier. Actuating a rail excursion is not as easy as evaluating fire or theft insurance.  We all think of a major accident potential from a crash, but it is much more complicated than that. Even someone climbing aboard a passenger train is risky when the injured call 1-888-GET-RICH with visions of winning the litigation lottery. Someone falling can attest the step box wasn't stable or the attendant trying to hold onto them caused them to fall. There are the mobs of people that show up trackside to watch a steam powered train pass. Perhaps one person trips over a discarded tie next to the tracks and proceeds to find a billboard attorney to represent them. These small cases often end up in expensive litigation and the insurance carriers are aware of this when they actuate coverage. Can you blame a Class 1 from not welcoming the circus onto their railroad?

Being in the railroad tourist business ourselves we look at every customer that shows up as a potential lawsuit. There are people that show up to our handcar enterprise and try to change the liability waiver without us noticing. Others just avoid signing it all together hoping we don't notice them. We have had tours ready for departure when my wife will come out yelling someone did not sign and then we stop the operation to figure out who it is. Others with a minor injury from their own stupidy will pick up phone and call a personal injury attorney hoping for the lottery payout.  We'll get disabled people trying to bait us into an ADA violation so they can litigate with us.  We had one guy call and ask if we can accomodate a wheel chair. Yes our facility can, but you need your legs to pedal to participate.  The caller says, "I can't pedal, but I am still going to come and check out your facility anyway."  

The reality is risk mitigation is very expensive as long as the potential payout is high. 
 

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

I cannot speak for everybody, but at the Steam Railroading Institute (Owosso MI), we are fortunate to have several elements working to keep the mission going:

1. Strong leadership with ongoing efforts to recruit "fresh blood."
2. On our full-time mechanical crew staff of four, the oldest is 35.  The other three are in their twenties, and all are quite capable.  The staff works seamlessly with volunteeers.
3. We have a shortline railroad that will listen to our operational proposals, and give us straight answers (not always the case elsewhere).  Relations with railroads - the one on which you operate and all those you need to move equipment - need to be constantly nourished with a businesslike approach and mutual respect.  Don't just show up with your hand out.
4. The Part 230 process (and related standards) makes a better locomotive.  When PM #1225's rebuild of its running gear is completed in the near future, that part of the engine will be equal to (in some cases, better than) what came out of Lima in 1941.
5. At SRI, we have a strong safety culture and we are always looking to improve it.  Our customers know this, and it enhances their experience.  In part through this, we have earned the respect of our host railroad and the FRA.  And - no complacency allowed.
6. As part of our safety and emergency preparedness planning, we engage with law enforcement and other public safety officials to keep them approsed of our plans.  They have all expressed appreciation.

Bob Thatcher, Safety Officer
Steam Railroading Institute
 

Well written,  very relevant discussions.

Thanks for the 'real-world' realities, and the necessary 
informative and polite relations with the host RRs and
with local communities' administrations and those related departments,
police, fire and supporting admin orgs.

Its constant & positive communications amongst all the parties that makes 
'train-days' a success.. you can't have "too much" planning and
coordination, when it comes to running these Mainline trips.

​W.