Steam & Excursion > Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR Commission November Meeting

The C&TSRR Commission met on Saturday, November 1 and a link to the unofficial meeting report and video is given below. Some highlights:

• Ridership was down about 8,000 (~29,000) from 2024 mainly due to a delayed start of the season (mid June instead of late May) that occurred because engines were not made ready in time for service. (Announced earlier is that a new person is now in charge of the Chama shop).
• Engine availability was limited to start - Coal burners #484 and #488. New oil burner #487 came on later. #463 and #489 were out of service the entire season. (Historic 168 and diesel 114 helped out from Antonito early on). #484 is at the end of its 1472 day service life and will be out of service for the next several years; the cost to overhaul is estimated at 2 million dollars. Next year 463 and 489 should be back in service. #492 is being moved for Antonito for boiler inspection; funds for restoration include private donations.
• The ROW is in generally good shape with tie replacement and ballast work continuing past the end of the passenger season. The Long Creek culvert repair/replacement budgeted at $800,000 was completed at one-half that cost. Passenger rolling stock maintenance is occurring and another handicap/concession car is being prepared.
• Increased costs are taking a toll, the big one being insurance. The previous provider dropped out after the D&S 416 fire and the current cost is about twice. Participation in the states' insurance pools is not available (explanation not given). Ticket costs do not cover all operational expenses so additional state appropriations are necessary. Capital appropriations cannot be used for operations. In addition a one million dollar capital appropriation from New Mexico was pulled back after it had been awarded (no reason given).
• Marketing for next year is being prepared and emphasis will be digital and social media in an attempt to gain riders from the younger generation. Expanded marketing will be pushed in the Denver area.(I would like to see marketing in the West Texas region including Amarillo, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa and also the DFW and OKCity/Tulsa areas).
• There was extensive discussion on the train schedule and the need to offer shorter trains. Summer trains from both locations were only 40 to 50% full using up both human resources and engine time. Starting next year, only one train per day will be offered with trains leaving Chama and Antonito on alternate days. Two trains will be offered during the fall color season. Ideas for shorter trips are being explored and the geology and botany trains will be continued. In today's fast paced environment, shorter trains appeal to families with kids so they need to be developed. (My comment subsequent  to the meeting discussion: How do you get shorter trips [other than the obvious Chama-Cumbres turn] when this historic railroad was saved specifically to provide a ride through wilderness that was otherwise inaccessible to modern high volume transportation?)

Following the meeting, citizen journalist Sam Seiber posted the information on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum where there was extensive discussion on the meeting and suggestions made for future short trips. Links are below:

Commission meeting report and video: http://train.sbseiber.com/CTM2025Nov01.html

Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum thread on Commission meeting actions: https://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,479409,page=1
 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/25 07:44 by Cumbresfan.

Maybe running shorter trains and unfortunately scaling back on the number of food choices at the Osier lunch stop will help with the budget.  Also running a short Cumbres turn with steam up hill with a diesel on the end to bring it back down to Chama might attract the people who want shorter runs.  I have ridden the C&TS 5 times in the last 28 years and always can't wait until the next time I'm able to ride.  A true historic treasure and a great experience.

stevelv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe running shorter trains and unfortunately
> scaling back on the number of food choices at the
> Osier lunch stop will help with the budget.  Also
> running a short Cumbres turn with steam up hill
> with a diesel on the end to bring it back down to
> Chama might attract the people who want shorter
> runs.  I have ridden the C&TS 5 times in the last
> 28 years and always can't wait until the next time
> I'm able to ride.  A true historic treasure and a
> great experience.

I'm for most anything that will help the railroad survive but to be honest I like things pretty much the way they are. Two of the things I enjoy the most are the length of the ride and the stop at Osier. Like stevelv I've ridden multiple times over several decades but living a couple thousand miles away limits my opportunities to be there. Faced with shrinking attention spans perhaps change might be unavoidable but I hope they will always be able to offer the full length ride on a regular basis. I agree, the C&TS is one of the great rail experiences on the continent.   

The C&TS is really different from the D&S.  The ride up the 4% is truly a amazing ride hearing the engine digging for all it is worth.  The ride is also a lot more open than the D&S which stays mostly in narrow canyons.  Both are great rides.

I sure do hate to hear about such a cut back on the C&TS.  And, I Imagine the food man in Osier may take a serious financial hit.  What scares me the most is the loss of income to the railroad.and whether or not it does financial harm to the railroad.  It wasn't long ago it carried anywhere from the mid 30,000 to 40,000 passengers.  I imagine the inflation of the past year or two has hurt the number of riders.

Demographics are likely playing a role, aging boomer generation getting smaller by the day,
and younger generations not that keen on being trapped on a train for hours with no cell service.
The locked-in post-Covid travel madness is abating in concert with a fading economy.
A long drive to get there doesn't help.
Could be the new normal.

Expanded marketing may bring in New riders. But, a long, expensive ride may not appeal to all younger families

Posted from Android

PumpkinHogger's comments are spot on and the brutal truth is that they're going to have to figure out how
to make do with the current ridership. It needs to be optimized and I think that having that 4th parlor car is
going to help. Face it, 2 nights in Alamosa plus the train will hit $600 in "Leaf Season". There isn't the Durango
Silverton appeal and the only reason to be there is the train. 

Out 

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PumpkinHogger's comments are spot on and the
> brutal truth is that they're going to have to
> figure out how
> to make do with the current ridership. It needs to
> be optimized and I think that having that 4th
> parlor car is
> going to help. Face it, 2 nights in Alamosa plus
> the train will hit $600 in "Leaf Season". There
> isn't the Durango
> Silverton appeal and the only reason to be there
> is the train. 
>
> Out 

I agree. This is my favorite railroad. But getting there is a hike and there is nothing else there beside the train. It’s not really family friendly because of its location. It’s been surviving because of people with lots of time and disposable income. And as another poster mentioned, people with both those things are a shrinking demographic.

Posted from iPhone

PumpkinHogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Demographics are likely playing a role, aging
> boomer generation getting smaller by the day,
> and younger generations not that keen on being
> trapped on a train for hours with no cell
> service.
> The locked-in post-Covid travel madness is abating
> in concert with a fading economy.
> A long drive to get there doesn't help.
> Could be the new normal.

I think you targeted the problem.  The under 50 don't want to take an all day train ride, and no amount of social media marketing is going to solve the problem. A shorter train ride won't solve the issue because it is a long way to go for a short experience with little else to do. We had an inquiry from the acting director wanting a fleet of narrow gauge railbikes to run tours and he got sticker shock with the price.  He had another idea that included lodging that I thought was a brilliant idea, but since I don't see mention of it perhaps the idea got tossed.

Our Monterey Branch Line business carried 18-20k people a year and most of our customer base was 25-40 year olds.  We did well because we were at a destination with other things to do. Our customers came primarily for us, but they would not have come if there weren't other attractions. People want an activity, restaurants, and window shops to occupy their time.  One trick destinations don't work well in the modern world.  Take a compass, draw a 100 mile radius around your destination and that is the limit for your day travelers. If you want to pull beyond that you will need hotels and more diverse activities for people to do.  

One thing I observed in California is most employers don't give much time off anymore.  Where in the past people might take a week off for vacation, most don't get much vacation time anymore and at best people tack on a day or two on the weekends to make a four day vacation. We found in California that the weekday tourism business was deadsville with huge crowds on the weekends. Employers use to give vacation and sick time, but most have eliminated sick and just give a combination of the two. Get sick with the flu and half your vacation time is gone. This hurts tourism because there isn't business on the weekdays.   It is really hard to run a business and keep employees working where you can sell out one-day a week and have the other six days with light crowds.

Going forward railroad tourism is going to get much worse nationwide.  Most of us on here are an older generation that had it pretty damn good in terms of income and time off from work.  The younger generation, my kids will not have it so good and may never have the disposable income to experience the opportunities that I had.  Owning a house is out of reach and lack of good paying jobs make getting ahead an impossible journey.  I have a daughter getting her MBA that I question whether there will be any work for her when she graduates.  This is the reality for the younger generation that is unlikely to afford both the cost and time off from their jobs that give them little time off for vacation. 

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

Some years ago someone said the ideal train ride is something like 2-4 hours for normals.  TRAIN come up with that factoid?   perhaps

webmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PumpkinHogger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Demographics are likely playing a role, aging
> > boomer generation getting smaller by the day,
> > and younger generations not that keen on being
> > trapped on a train for hours with no cell
> > service.
> > The locked-in post-Covid travel madness is
> abating
> > in concert with a fading economy.
> > A long drive to get there doesn't help.
> > Could be the new normal.
>
> I think you targeted the problem.  The under 50
> don't want to take an all day train ride, and no
> amount of social media marketing is going to solve
> the problem. A shorter train ride won't solve the
> issue because it is a long way to go for a short
> experience with little else to do. We had an
> inquiry from the acting director wanting a fleet
> of narrow gauge railbikes to run tours and he got
> sticker shock with the price.  He had another
> idea that included lodging that I thought was a
> brilliant idea, but since I don't see mention of
> it perhaps the idea got tossed.
>
> Our Monterey Branch Line business carried 18-20k
> people a year and most of our customer base was
> 25-40 year olds.  We did well because we were at
> a destination with other things to do. Our
> customers came primarily for us, but they would
> not have come if there weren't other attractions.
> People want an activity, restaurants, and window
> shops to occupy their time.  One trick
> destinations don't work well in the modern
> world.  Take a compass, draw a 100 mile radius
> around your destination and that is the limit for
> your day travelers. If you want to pull beyond
> that you will need hotels and more diverse
> activities for people to do.  
>
> One thing I observed in California is most
> employers don't give much time off anymore. 
> Where in the past people might take a week off for
> vacation, most don't get much vacation time
> anymore and at best people tack on a day or two on
> the weekends to make a four day vacation. We found
> in California that the weekday tourism business
> was deadsville with huge crowds on the weekends.
> Employers use to give vacation and sick time, but
> most have eliminated sick and just give a
> combination of the two. Get sick with the flu and
> half your vacation time is gone. This hurts
> tourism because there isn't business on the
> weekdays.   It is really hard to run a business
> and keep employees working where you can sell out
> one-day a week and have the other six days with
> light crowds.
>
> Going forward railroad tourism is going to get
> much worse nationwide.  Most of us on here are an
> older generation that had it pretty damn good in
> terms of income and time off from work.  The
> younger generation, my kids will not have it so
> good and may never have the disposable income to
> experience the opportunities that I had.  Owning
> a house is out of reach and lack of good paying
> jobs make getting ahead an impossible journey.  I
> have a daughter getting her MBA that I question
> whether there will be any work for her when she
> graduates.  This is the reality for the younger
> generation that is unlikely to afford both the
> cost and time off from their jobs that give them
> little time off for vacation. 

I like the rail bike idea. A quick google search shows they cost around $3,000 dollars per unit. That cost would probably go up considering it would have to be modified for narrow gauge. But it might be worth the initial investment. A bus ride up to the pass and a rail bike down the mountain is something that would be appealing to a lot of people who wouldn’t necessarily be interested in riding the train. As you said, the times are changing and any additional revenue streams should be considered.

I also sympathize with your daughter’s possible predicament. The job market is a tough place to be right now. I’m extremely lucky to be in a stable job. But as someone who just turned 40 my outlook for ever owning my own home is bleak. The math just isn’t working.

Posted from iPhone

I think there will always be work for people who have skills / energy that employers want, at that moment.  But,  entry level and first tier jobs are being chewed up by AI. Jobs that wouldn't immediately come to mind, like law firm and accounting firm positions.  People who went out and learned to code are finding AI does that faster, and better.  But there are openings for people who test the AI's results and model the results.

I've mentioned the tsunami of information that railroads have downloaded from train operations. Mated with GPS, it isn't far off that a "safety operator" formerly an engineer is sitting in the cab.  Wrench and spare knuckles at his / her side. BLET and UTU will fight that and each other to the death.

BKLJ611 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I like the rail bike idea. A quick google search
> shows they cost around $3,000 dollars per unit.
> That cost would probably go up considering it
> would have to be modified for narrow gauge. But it
> might be worth the initial investment. 

Ask commercial customers of the $3000 railbike with plastic wheels how the machine is holding up and you'll hear an earful.   Our standard gauge pedal machines that we built for our use ran us about $30k each. Just the wood centered wheels alone on our machines ran upwards of $6000+ for a set of four.  Each seat for our machines rolls on custom machined delron rollers and a custom slider extrusion with handcrafted seat cushions. Our machines have an hydraulic braking system and a parking brake that acts as a emergency brake. Our electric assist system with speed regulation adds several thousand to the price. The largest railbike operator Rail Explorers had their cars built in South Korea and was spending $12k on their machines about 10 years ago, today they probably considerably higher. Designing a narrow gauge car would require considerable engineering to position the two seats above smaller diameter wheels.  In my opinion it is well worth the cost, but the machines have little respect among railroads because for some reason operators feel they should be cheap.  The only fuel is electricity and people power. Our equipment ran with near 100% reliability and never derailed. Our railbike operation in Marina grossed over $1 million a year with minimal operating expenses. With those kinds of returns the justification is there for a considerable expenditure.
 

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

---

webmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BKLJ611 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I like the rail bike idea. A quick google
> search
> > shows they cost around $3,000 dollars per unit.
> > That cost would probably go up considering it
> > would have to be modified for narrow gauge. But
> it
> > might be worth the initial investment. 
>
> Ask commercial customers of the $3000 railbike
> with plastic wheels how the machine is holding up
> and you'll hear an earful.   Our standard gauge
> pedal machines that we built for our use ran us
> about $30k each. Just the wood centered wheels
> alone on our machines ran upwards of $6000+ for a
> set of four.  Each seat for our machines rolls on
> custom machined delron rollers and a custom slider
> extrusion with handcrafted seat cushions. Our
> machines have an hydraulic braking system and a
> parking brake that acts as a emergency brake. Our
> electric assist system with speed regulation adds
> several thousand to the price. The largest
> railbike operator Rail Explorers had their cars
> built in South Korea and was spending $12k on
> their machines about 10 years ago, today they
> probably considerably higher. Designing a narrow
> gauge car would require considerable engineering
> to position the two seats above smaller diameter
> wheels.  In my opinion it is well worth the cost,
> but the machines have little respect among
> railroads because for some reason operators feel
> they should be cheap.  The only fuel is
> electricity and people power. Our equipment ran
> with near 100% reliability and never
> derailed. Our railbike operation in Marina
> grossed over $1 million a year with minimal
> operating expenses. With those kinds of returns
> the justification is there for a considerable
> expenditure.
>  

Very interesting, thanks for the insights and information.

Posted from iPhone

At our railroad museum we have dropped from three Saturday and two Sunday diesel powered train rides to only two on Saturday due to lack of ridership. Railbike Explores use our line 6 days a week, they charge twice as much as our diesel passenger train, and are always sold out. Santa Train, Easter Bunny Train and Civil War Train draw good crowds otherwise so so. There is no connection with our passenger train except by grandparents, young people connect with railbike because they have ridden on bikes but they have never ridden on a train or seen a passenger train.