Steam & Excursion > The beginning of the End and the End of Steam for Railfans

That is regular service:

For those of you who were there: How did you find out steam was going to be vanquished? Did you get word from railroader friends or other railfans in the know, read about it in Trains magazine, or did you see or hear about steam vanquished on other roads?. Did you accept it was coming or did it finally settle in that the end was near. Were there any doubters out there? Were you busy with life and suddenly realized it was too late to enjoy what you took for granted?

Victor Baird



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/26 09:49 by wabash2800.

Some observers see the October 1952 national coal miners strike as accelerating the already underway process to convert to diesel power.  Lines that were considering changing over made the decision faster than they might have under other circumstances.

Railroads that were dependent on coal for locomotive power were left high and dry, while dieselized lines moved right along.

 

Good point. And I understand there also were some situations with upswings in traffic  (like a bumper crop) that gave a very temporary reprieve for steam. But I am more intrested in how people found out about the end of steam and how quickly they reacted to it. Of course, when it got into fulll swing, newspapers reported it, with lines of steam locos marched off to be cut up or the last run of steam in the area.

Victor Baird

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Some observers see the October 1952 national coal
> miners strike as accelerating the already underway
> process to convert to diesel power.  Lines that
> were considering changing over made the decision
> faster than they might have under other
> circumstances.
>
> Railroads that were dependent on coal for
> locomotive power were left high and dry, while
> dieselized lines moved right along.
>
>  

In the case of the NKP Berkshires, as I recall, in the winter of ’58, the talk among the locals in Conneaut, Girard, Erie, etc., who worked for the NKP, and especially those who worked in the shops and roundhouse at Conneaut OH, was that they had been laid off and there were more layoffs coming. Then about April of ’58, 700s’ were still hauling the majority of through trains but Berkshires began to appear on the locals which had previously been assigned to 2-8-2’s. And there was the occasional Diesel powered freight. Then gradually from April through June of ’58, the power swing from steam to Diesel became more prevalent until July 2 of ’58 when the last Berkshire went from Bellevue, OH to Conneaut, OH. During the summer of ’59, there were still serviceable Berkshires in Conneaut and I would watch a yard Diesel switcher pull 700s’ in and out of the roundhouse to exercise the bearings. But an extended steel strike at the time negated the need to put any Berkshires back in service.   
Jim Kreider

A little off topic but I grew up in Rochester NY. By the time I could drive, the NYC had fully dieselized on the mainline. What I didn't know was that just a few hours to the east of me, the D&H was still running articulated steam locomotives. I'd like to think that had I known that, I would have headed east to see them. Sigh.

Bob Phelps
Micanopy, FL

Disclaimer, I was not there .... I feel old this morning, but not that old.

First off, it was part of the changing fabric of American life like all the other major technological developments changing the way of life in the first 50 years of the 20th Century.
So you really had to live under a rock not to know what was happening. Newspapers, magazines (railroad and otherwise like Life and Look and news mags) Movietones in theaters and just watching the world around you as well as traveling, as the railroad was the primary mode of long distance public travel back then. These are some ways you knew that steam was getting competition, where it was running, and where the diesel was making a presence. 

Railfans were very club orientated back then, be it the RRE or NRHS groups in the east ... I am not so familiar with out west, but recall reading club news rags from the 40's out of California. So a word of mouth and personal fan network. You can read issues of Railroad Magazine discussing it as early as the early - mid 1930's. The case of steam vs. diesel and the development earlier of doodlebugs replacing steam on branch and secondary lines. Electrifications on Reading, DL&W, PRR were also a sign that there was competition to steam.
BTW, I love reading the old 1930's magazines. Later, 1940 and on, there was TRAINS Magazine. By the 1950's both Railroad and TRAINS were giving tips on where to find steam and when, especially the late 50's. Many fans kept a close ear and were in contact with their intel people from various citadels of steam, guys like Hank Griffith's and Dick Kindig. Hank's son told me that Hank had planned to take him out on a Big Boy photo trip when the fall grain rush started in the Fall of 1959. Due to the economic recession, that never happened, but during the Summer of '59 many thought it would.

DM&IR, GTW in Michigan and a number of smaller roads were mentioned in the magazines along with the 4-4-0's of New Brunswick and Ontario and CP Rail through Quebec and Maine. I think one issue of TRAINS had an article of where to find steam in '59 or '60 or some such. It might have been a tail to an article about the DM&IR. (Also check the Aug 1957 issue) So, no internet or cell phone texts, or Trainorders, but the collective group savvy and railfan organizations where members mingled and the the old fashioned network of contacting your "railroader in the know" rather prevailed to give a pretty good idea of what was going on and where although not as timely as our instant communication today.

Lucius Beebe published "Trains in Transition" in 1941, and of course the classic David P. Morgan and Phil Hastings  "In Search of Steam" and "Smoke Over the Prairies" which spells out quite a bit of "how they found out what was where" in their quest.

Hopefully a few more senior folks are around out there to give their first hand. I am just old enough to know what I missed and to care about it.

Not to go too far off topic, but how much did the railroaders rate of pay for steam locomotives factor into dieselization? Did they have to take a pay cut when they started running diesels? As I understand it, steam engine crews pay was based partly on what size engine they had.

Tom

Railfan4Christ Wrote:
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> Not to go too far off topic, but how much did the
> railroaders rate of pay for steam locomotives
> factor into dieselization? Did they have to take a
> pay cut when they started running diesels? As I
> understand it, steam engine crews pay was based
> partly on what size engine they had.
>
> Tom

To an extent, but the diesels were pretty hefty as weight on drivers and quite a few jobs were paid on miles with weight on drivers as an arbitrary. What was more irksome is the diesel would pull more and there would be longer and heavier trains and fewer jobs - including fewer helper districts -  meaning fewer jobs in the running and mechanical crafts. Also in B&B where you did'n't have to maintain the facilities.

With diesels came fewer and heavier trains coupled with passenger and express trains off. So guys on the verge of promotion or newly promoted were set back sometimes for years. Others were cut off the board and never got back. That was a bigger issue than a rate of pay from the guys I knew. Early on of course, was the whole controversy of how many enginemen were needed on an MU set of diesels. That got rather settled out during WWII. But going forward it was a matter of working or not, not rate. 

train1275 Wrote:
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> the whole controversy of how many
> enginemen were needed on an MU set of diesels.

That was allegedly a driving factor when the PRR bought Centipede diesels from Baldwin - management at one time feared that the unions would compel them to pay multiple engineers on an MU'd set, so they went shopping for huge diesels that wouldn't require four units to replace one steam engine on a train.

I also recall reading somewhere that by 1950 it was clear to everyone that diesels were the way of the future, sooner or later; obviously, steam held on longer in some places than others.

train1275, that is what I was told by Wabash railroaders about fewer, longer trains. For example, when I interviewed one retired engineer and and asked if he liked the new duesels, his reply was, 'I didn't, I lost my job!"

With low seniorty as a fireman, when the diesels came, he was bumped out. He went to work for the Pennsy west of Fort Wayne, and later came back to the Wabash, retiring from NS as engineer.

Victor Baird

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/26 11:24 by wabash2800.

   I grew up in Southern California and remember steam on all three railroads.  This was the hot topic of discussion among Dad and his railfan friends.  Some diehards viewed diesels as a fad, amd the railroads would come to their senses, and return to the faithful old steam locomotives. Dad realized diesels were here to stay, and adapted to the change.  Some left the hobby, never to return.

Brian Black
Castle Rock, CO.

tehachcond Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>    I grew up in Southern California and remember
> steam on all three railroads.  This was the hot
> topic of discussion among Dad and his railfan
> friends.  Some diehards viewed diesels as a fad,
> amd the railroads would come to their senses, and
> return to the faithful old steam locomotives. Dad
> realized diesels were here to stay, and adapted to
> the change.  Some left the hobby, never to
> return.
>
> Brian Black
> Castle Rock, CO.

It was the late 1970's before I ever got involved in any formal railfan organization. I remember the old guys of the time, probably late 70's to approaching 90 years of age. They had two interests, steam and trolley / interurban. Anything else ... forget it.

A couple of things;  an  EMD   man told  Texas & Pacific officials that their diesels would pull a train from Ft Worth to El Paso a thousand dollars cheaper   than steam.  .That was 615 miles and T&P had 1800 miles of track.  That added up quick.  Add to that water problems Big Spring to El Paso  made it obvious steam died first in that run.  basically first there, about 1948-1949 and the rest of the system by 1952
When it died? It was so gradual at first no one paid attention, not newspapers or others.  It started whrn T&P ordered F-7s in 1947.  E units in 1946.but no "official" notifying of it.

I wonder who the OP wants to answer this; by 1954, when the Western Maryland Rwy gave up steam, those who had reached 21, "the age of majority", would have been born in 1933, 93 years old today.
Even those who saw the demise of N&W steam in 1960 would have to be born in 1939, 87 years today.
Although TO is blessed or plagued by some vociferous 80-somethings, I don't see a big core of members in this age group.
Personally I think the OP IS A LITTLE LATE FOR COHERENT STORIES OF: "WHERE WERE YOU WHEN STEAM DISAPPEARED".

bigsavage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder who the OP wants to answer this; by 1954,
> when the Western Maryland Rwy gave up steam, those
> who had reached 21, "the age of majority", would
> have been born in 1933, 93 years old today.
> Even those who saw the demise of N&W steam in 1960
> would have to be born in 1939, 87 years today.


Well, I was born in April 1942 (now 84), and visited the N&W in August 1958, in order to witness :the end". The month prior, the Js had been removed from passenger service, replaced by leased E units from RF&P and/or ACL.  Not totally disappointing, as all the eastbound coal trains passing through the Roanoke passenger station were still all steam powered. Spent another cay at Crewe, including a short trip on J #600 on a pulpwood local (the 600 eventually derailed in the pulpwood yard, and the MofW truck drove me back to the Crewe roundhouse).

> Although TO is blessed or plagued by some
> vociferous 80-somethings, I don't see a big core
> of members in this age group.
> Personally I think the OP IS A LITTLE LATE FOR
> COHERENT STORIES OF: "WHERE WERE YOU WHEN STEAM
> DISAPPEARED".

I can't imagine it would have been a big surprise. You would have to have been living under a rock to not realize that diesels were appearing on the head end more often than steam. Also, believe it or not, people did communicate back then even though there was no social media. People would talk in person, there were clubs, there was print media, etc. No doubt there were some deniers who were left disappointed and some who wished they had planned a trip to see certain operations before it was too late, but that's true of just about everything in life. Another factor to keep in mind is the massive affect that the transition had on communiites and families. The number of facility closures and layoffs during the transition years was massive. Anyone with any connections to the railroad industry surely knew what was going on.

As far as I know the NYC finally killed steam on the Big Four in 1957 and the Pennsy probably about the same time.

Victor Baird



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/26 04:40 by wabash2800.

Growing up in the '40s and '50s, and in an SP family, I managed to experience steam's finest hours and it's demise.
On our vacations in the post-war '40s, steam was still the king, diesels were still a bit of a novelty, especially on the SP.
Living on SP's Coast Division, diesels came last to us.  What I remember as the warning were the growing dead lines, and, on vacations, diesels were suddenly everywhere.
As a steam fan, these times were difficult, especially those rapidly growing dead lines.

AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

There was an economic recession in the US from June 1957 thru May 1958.  Industrial production dropped substantially.  Likely caused a lot of railroads to store steam locomotives as business (train shipments, etc) dropped off a cliff.

Once stored, many stayed stored.

train1275 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tehachcond Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >    I grew up in Southern California and
> remember
> > steam on all three railroads.  This was the
> hot
> > topic of discussion among Dad and his railfan
> > friends.  Some diehards viewed diesels as a
> fad,
> > amd the railroads would come to their senses,
> and
> > return to the faithful old steam locomotives.
> Dad
> > realized diesels were here to stay, and adapted
> to
> > the change.  Some left the hobby, never to
> > return.
> >
> > Brian Black
> > Castle Rock, CO.
>
> It was the late 1970's before I ever got involved
> in any formal railfan organization. I remember the
> old guys of the time, probably late 70's to
> approaching 90 years of age. They had two
> interests, steam and trolley / interurban.
> Anything else ... forget it.

That's sad some just never liked change even if it was good for the industry!

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